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ftvvil
Little Guppy
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 33
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 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:48 pm Post subject: Did God have a mid life crisis |
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What happened to the God of the ot who smot people right and left and had the jews kill thousands of people so that they could take their land even to the point of God killing Jewish leaders and their families if they who cattle from the burned out towns. He ordered men women and children to be slaughtered so that the Jews could take over their property.
He put poison snakes in their midst to punish the jews because they complained about the hadrship of the desert and then when conforonted and told that this would not look good he relented and gave them a idol in the form of a snake heacd on a staff to ward off the poison of the snake if they but touched the idol;
then along comes Christ who is also God and he says turn the other check and he forgives everyone, contrary to God in the OT who kicked Adam and 'eve out of paradise and doomed all of us to this world just because they ate an apple
The God of the OT is very much different from God of the NT.
Wa happen to him???????????
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gswisher
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The God of the OT is very much different from God of the NT.
Wa happen to him??????????? |
He followed through on a very old promise to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. He brought in a whole new covenant--which was his purpose from the beginning.
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17 |
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ftvvil
Little Guppy
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:19 am Post subject: |
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gswisher
Thank you for your answer but it does not begin to explain why the difference in the way god behaves in the OT and the NT
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ftvvil |
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gswisher
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. It does.
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17 |
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ftvvil
Little Guppy
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see much point to this. You don't answer my question.
why cant you address what I ask without quoting unrelated scriptures?
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ftvvil |
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gswisher
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:35 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't quoting scripture--that verse is my signature. Here is one scripture that I hope addresses your question...
Hebrews 12:18-24 ISV For you have not come to something that can be touched, to a blazing fire, to darkness, to gloom, (19) to a trumpet's blast, or to a voice that made the hearers beg that not another word be spoken to them. (20) For they could not endure the command that was given: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death." (21) Indeed, the sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear." (22) Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to tens of thousands of angels joyfully gathered together, (23) to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect, (24) to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17 |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:47 am Post subject: |
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God's kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden was part of their punishment for their transgressions. God warned them not to disobey Him, and they did it anyway.
Throughout the Old Testament, the same thing happens over and over again. God warns man not to do something, and man does it, disobeying God, and bringing more punishment on himself.
Towards the end of the Old Testament, man is committing more and more sins, and actually challenging the justice of God, to the point of where God vows to find a new way to deal with man, through a new covenent, through His one and only son, the Christ.
You see, the Old Testament describes how no matter what God did to instruct man how to behave righteously, that man could never be righteous is God's eyes by his own works. And it shows intricately each mistake that mankind made to fall further away from God. The OT is from the perspective of God discipling man and instructing man as the Father, the Creator... a separate entity in man's eyes.
The New Testament is from the perspective of God on earth, the Son of Man, Jesus Christ disciplining man face to face... as one of their own... their actual savior. Jesus Christ not only explained to man how to behave righteously, He was the true example of 'righteous man' in all of His works... from forgiveness to self sacrifice. He not only instructed us of the way, He showed us the way... and He is the way. The Apostles, who were there to experience the Christ first hand, carried on with His teachings through the gift of the Holy Spirit, which the Christ Jesus promised us to counsel our way.
There is nothing new under the sun. All that happens now has happened before. Read about it all in scripture. The wars of the Old Testament still go on today, as well as the corruption of man behind the wars. The oppression of the OT still happens today, as well as the releasing of said oppression by the hand of the LORD God Almighty.
The message of both testaments is the same: Man will commit the same wickedness until the return of the Christ... and that from beginning to end, God will remain with us as our Rock, our Guide, our Father, our Judge and our Savior.
Maybe it could be put like this: Discipline has two parts; punishment and forgiveness. The Old Testament describes God's laws, man's works and God's punishments to man... and the New Testament is about God's forgiveness of man and God's reward to those who believe.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Well done Hekkler! Very well put.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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ftvvil
Little Guppy
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:34 am Post subject: |
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hi hekkler
you make some interesting points but they beg the question.
Please excuse my spelling
here is an onnipotent God who know everything yet the Bible portrays him as some time being very inept.
He creats man who is flawed in the sense that he is not capable of obaying Gods rules per you explanation yet he smotes them right and left. for doing so. Then he seems surprised at how they behave. Threatening to anilate he whole mish mash and start over.
certainly he was aware that this is how we would turn out.
makes observations and then is persuaded by man to change his views.
kills indiscremently people who as far as we can tell did nothing wrong. Drowning the Egyptian soldiers for instance and the many habatants of the holy land to make room for the Jews.
Then you have the water of Eqypt turning to blood and there is no lasting consequence for this. and destroying all the crops yet life goes on in Egypt. they are nice stories yet they don't make sense except as alagory.
for instance crossing the desert from egypt the masses I estimate of about 3,000,000 people and animals would require about 10 acre feet of water per day. thats a lake some 436,000 sqare feet of water a foot deep yet the best evidence of water supply was the water gushing from mose's staff which would take days to create and acre foot of water and that only happened once. There is no evidence now or in the bible of there being this kind of supply .
Tell me about the sons of heaven who took wives of men.?
the answers I get to my questions always skirt my question and provide Bible quotations for answeres which mostly have nothing to do with my question. I have read and continue to read the Bible and so although I don't quote chapter and verse I know what it says and don't need someont to quote it too me.
All I have is the brain the good lord gave me and as i use it to the best of my abality i reason that the bible is just a very nice story
and has very little that is scientifically possible. I know God can do the impossible but in most cases the bible ignores this in relating its story.
How did Noha corrall all the animals birds insects etc in the ark.
I know with Gods help he could but it doesn't say that God helped him.
take for example when Christ is taken and Peter cuts off the ear of one of the servents and Christ puts it back on. My Gosh can you imagine you are standing there and see this happen and yet you would not realize that this guy is something special. And why does only one version of the Bible tell this part of the story?
I could go on and on and the more I read the Bible the less it makes sence as history and fact.
If you were reading a science book and it said water was made up of carbon and oxygen would you believe anything else you read in that book?
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gswisher
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Given the way you look at these things none of it makes sense. I don't agree with those who think the Bible is inerrant--it's been subject to human error for thousands of years. I think the things we read into it are even further in error. But what do you do now? You want God to make human sense? Why? WHen I listen to most CHristians, it seems they believe more in the Bible than they believe in the God who abides in them. It's a book. ANd without God, it's a dead letter.
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17 |
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ftvvil
Little Guppy
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:10 am Post subject: |
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gswisher
well do i see a light in this land of bible thumpers?
christianity based soley on the bible is like trying to make an
a bomb with a high school physics book.
as for me trying to understand God with human intelegence, unfortunately that is all I have to work with and if that isn't enough then God short changed me cause what I read in the Bible it makes a lot of alagory sense and sets some moral values but most of it, when I read it, I have to say "what the heck does that mean."
Most of the Bible thumpers behave as mind numbed robots who can only quote verses and they know the chapter and all but when it comes to comon sense they seem to have left what God gave them for brains and acuity out side in the dark.
I don't mean to offend but when I ask a simple question I receive in reply quotations and verses that I don't understand and my original question is left out in left field somewhere unanswered.
Maybe cause there is no answer or maybe the implications of the question cause them to wonder too.
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:35 am Post subject: |
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ftvvil, you seem not to be asking for answers, but asking for the wisdom to understand the answers.
We can only give you the answers in manly terms. Wisdom of understanding comes from the Holy Spirit of Christ. I would suggest that you take the answers, and ask the Lord Jesus Christ for the understanding.
If you do not, then no matter what answers are given to you, even the simple truth, will not be satisfactory to you.
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The HeKkLeR |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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There are no errors in scripture, only errors in our interpretation and application of scripture.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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You want answers...let me try to help you.
| Quote: | | He creats man who is flawed in the sense that he is not capable of obaying Gods rules per you explanation yet he smotes them right and left. for doing so. Then he seems surprised at how they behave. Threatening to anilate he whole mish mash and start over. |
God created man perfectly capable of obeying his rules. He did not create man with a sin nature, but with a free will. The only commandment and rule he gave to Adam and Eve was not to eat of the tree, in their perfected bodies, they were perfectly able to keep this commandment. Yet they were also perfectly able to disobey it. They had the choice to obey God or not, and that choice is the perfection that God created us with. He could have created these two so that they had to obey him, so that they could not disobey him, but why? Where is the joy in that, we are 'mindless robots'. 
You say he seemed surprised, Where have you read that he was surprised at anything? Perhaps the suprisal is your interpretation of how you would have felt, or how you feel God would have felt, but I do not believe you can provide scriptural evidence for him being suprised at all.
| Quote: | certainly he was aware that this is how we would turn out.
makes observations and then is persuaded by man to change his views. |
Certainly, yes he was certainly aware of how it would turn out, but this does not mean that he does not have reasons for doing it. I know that if I eat too much at dinner, I will hurt later, but this does not stop me from enjoying the moment. This can be likened to God, he knew that man would act as he did, but this did not stop him, because he also knew that allowing man the freedom to choose, was a necessary evil that must take place for man to ultimately choose him.
I am assuming that when you say persuaded by man, you are speaking of the account with Abraham, as most people quote this to say that God changed his mind, or that man changed God's mind. But if you study the passage, the question asked by Abraham to God, if he found fifty would he not destroy it, God answered, no for fifty I will not destroy it. And Abraham goes on. Abraham asks God would he destroy it if there is fifty, then forty-five,, then forty, then thirty, then twenty, then ten. God did not lie, if he found fifty, if he found twenty, he would not have destroyed Sodom, he also did not change his mind, how do we know that his mind wasn't in the original that if there were ten righteous men in that city he would sprare it, but as he did not find these ten, he told Abraham that he would destroy it.
| Quote: | | kills indiscremently people who as far as we can tell did nothing wrong. Drowning the Egyptian soldiers for instance and the many habatants of the holy land to make room for the Jews. |
This goes into the doctrine of original sin, and the depravity of man. If you believe that we are ALL sinful men, sinful by nature, then God has EVERY right to destroy us, any act of disobedience is an act against God, and adequet reasoning to destroy us. If you look at it in the sense that he has not destroyed us when we ought to have been destroyed then the grace of God abounds. If you compare yourself to perhaps Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer, then we are very righteous people. But this is a mistake, because we cannot compare ourselves to other unrighteous to make ourselves look better. No matter how awful we are, we can always find someone worse then we. Dahmer could have suredly found someone worse them himself, and compared to them he would appear a saint. But if we compare ourselves to the sinless Jesus, to the sinless God, we all are sinners and as filthy rags.
| Quote: |
Then you have the water of Eqypt turning to blood and there is no lasting consequence for this. and destroying all the crops yet life goes on in Egypt. they are nice stories yet they don't make sense except as alagory. |
Does it have to make sense to you for it to be true? The idea that a man can walk on the moon does not make sense to many people, hence they deny that it happened. They say it was a conspiracy, does this then mean that it isn't true? Do not attempt to discredit the Bible based upon your understanding of things. Was there any lasting consequences for the water turning into blood? No. Does that mean it didn't happen? No. Who cares if there was lasting consequences or not, it happened, even if we do not recognize why it was done, that does not mean there God does not have reasoning for doing so. The Nile was the chief source of water for the Egyptians, water is important for living, it was turned to blood, undrinkable, even if it was for a brief period of time, the Egyptians got the idea that this God could take away their livelihood, he was that powerful, I'd say that was lasting consequences. It got the Israelites free didn't it?
| Quote: | | for instance crossing the desert from egypt the masses I estimate of about 3,000,000 people and animals would require about 10 acre feet of water per day. thats a lake some 436,000 sqare feet of water a foot deep yet the best evidence of water supply was the water gushing from mose's staff which would take days to create and acre foot of water and that only happened once. |
For one, It was water from a rock, that Moses hit with his staff. Another, I am almost positive that they did not cross through a desert, but rather the wilderness. They may have crossed through desert regions, but not for long periods of time. There are other accounts of Moses turning a bitter pool into drinkeable water. Just becasue it does not say of the different pools and springs that these people found, does not mean that they were not there. IT does not record the Israelites using the restroom at all during these eighty some odd years, does that then mean that they didn't?
| Quote: | the answers I get to my questions always skirt my question and provide Bible quotations for answeres which mostly have nothing to do with my question. I have read and continue to read the Bible and so although I don't quote chapter and verse I know what it says and don't need someont to quote it too me.
All I have is the brain the good lord gave me and as i use it to the best of my abality i reason that the bible is just a very nice story
and has very little that is scientifically possible. I know God can do the impossible but in most cases the bible ignores this in relating its story. |
Sir, if you cannot give scriptural reference to where you see certain events that have taken place in the Bible, do not expect us to blindly accept what you give as fact. ON another board a member constantly provides parroted accounts that he's heard about the Bible. None of them are true. You yourself, have shown that allthough you read the Bible over and over may have misunderstood instances, or simply forget certain aspects of the story. You say that the water came from Moses' staff, As far as I know it was from a rock, if you can show me the scripture where it was a staff, I will recant my statement. While I am not going to discredit everything that you say because you cannot point directly to where it is in scripture, do not expect me to take everything you say without scriptural proof as true.
'little that is scientifically possible'. It is scientifically impossible for a being to create the universe into existence, as of yet. Philosophically it is probably if not actuall. Scientifically it is unheard of. A couple hundred years ago (maybe more) it was scientifically impossible and absurd to think that the earth was not the center of the universe. Untill you can provide scientific actuallities that the Bible contradicts, please do not attempt to play the science card.
| Quote: | How did Noha corrall all the animals birds insects etc in the ark.
I know with Gods help he could but it doesn't say that God helped him. |
It does not say that he did not however either. God commanded Noah to take of certain number of animals unto the ark. But it does not say how these animals came to him. It is speculation on your part and mine to assume how they did. But I am not the one attempting to discredit it based upon my speculations.
| Quote: | | take for example when Christ is taken and Peter cuts off the ear of one of the servents and Christ puts it back on. My Gosh can you imagine you are standing there and see this happen and yet you would not realize that this guy is something special. And why does only one version of the Bible tell this part of the story? |
One version? Do you mean one Gospel account? Versions are the KJV, NIV... I believe only one account does record the man's ear being cut off. Why only one records it? I dunno, do you need more then one account to make something true? You have four of Jesus' buriel and resurrection, do you believe that?
And 'My Gosh' is right. It appears to be sheer stupidity practiced on the part of the people who witnessed this miracle. But during that time, as we can see during later history, people believed in the supernatural, alot more then we do today. Look at the middle ages, people believed in Dragons and Wizards, a man healing another's ear only proves that he is something special, they realized this, but they did not realize that he was God himself.
| Quote: | | I could go on and on and the more I read the Bible the less it makes sence as history and fact. |
Then attempt to historically prove the Bible to be inaccurate...I dare you... The more and more history attempts to disprove the Bible, the more credible and credible it becomes. You could attempt using some other method, but history is not the best way to go about it, try philosophically.
| Quote: | | If you were reading a science book and it said water was made up of carbon and oxygen would you believe anything else you read in that book? |
Does the Bible give you blatant scientific falacies as this?
I thought water was made up of carbon and oxygen...jk
What is this an acronym for may I ask?
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The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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shepreach
Cobra
Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 493
Location: ga
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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i have a question that may seem a little silly but it jst struck me: if God was before the beginning and will be for all eternity, when will He reach mid life?
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I'm wounded sore but not yet slain, I'll lie and bleed awhile then rise to fight again.
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