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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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there are two theives crucified with Jesus on calgary.
One admits his guilt and says basically, "the punishment fits the crime". The other seeks escape from justice even though he is a criminal. (get off the cross free card).
which one made it to paradise?
hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Romans.
Thanks for including those passages from Romans 13. Let me highlight one of them namely Romans 13:4 which says
| Quote: | | 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. |
Now how did Paul mean this to be interpreted? Is it possible that Paul was referring to all governing authorities of all times? Let us not forget that this passage was written before Christians began to be persecuted in Rome. Would Paul have said that the governing authorities in Rome were God's servants as agents of wrath after they started persecuting Christians? I hope you find this as unlikely as I. To be honest, it seems unlikely that the Roman authorities were ever much God's servants. The Romans loved butchery. Tiberias liked to have people thrown off cliffs. Charming man! His successors weren't any better. Caligula? His name is synonymous with debauchery. Nero? Well, we all know what he did. So were the governing authorities in Rome God's servants or was Paul just naive?
For this reason then, I do not think that this passage can be applied absolutely for all governments no matter what they do. Paul clearly had a higher opinion of Roman authorities than historians have. So perhaps we should interpret Paul as saying that governing (literally superior) authorities are God's servants when they act with superior moral codes. If that is the case, then it begs the question to apply it to governments that practice capital punishment.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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God doesn't change he is the same yesterday and tomorrow.
ALL scripture is for us today especially the NEW TESTAMENT. If one can back up the Old Testament with the new than it IS for us today...nothing has changed.
The fact that Paul emphasized obedience to our Government and it's authority is good enough for me...are you now saying we shouldn't pay taxes either?
Or that we shouldn't do everything else God through Paul said in Romans 13??? |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Romans, it is helpful to make it clear whose comments you are responding to each time. I presume that you are responding to my comments.
Obviously your biblical interpretation is more conservative than mine. Fine. We can agree to disagree on how authoritative Paul is. The fact that I think Paul's opinions were imperfect, does not mean that I have a low opinion of Paul. However, as a liberal interpreter of the bible, I am not going to use Paul's writings as an instruction manual. God has given me a brain--however limited--and a love of his world and the creatures in it. To make my decisions in life, I rely on that spirit of love to lead me onwards.
I may not have made myself clear in my previous post. I am saying that a government is not justified in all its actions simply by being a government. Whatever authority a government has from God--howsoever it is understood--it does not mean that any policy introduced by the government has carte blanche. However, it would be a mistake to believe that my remarks are meant to be critical of the concept of government itself.
Let me repeat my question to you and others. Do you believe that Romans 13 gives all governments the right to pass laws that are arbitrarily severe? Or is every government bound to limit the severity of its laws?
If the answer to the second question is yes, is the Old Testament the source of those limits for you? If so, how do we overcome the problem that some Old Testament laws seem incompatible with Jesus' ministry of love?
If the answer to the second question is no, is it only certain governments that have this right? If so how do we determine which ones?
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Just a side note...if I do not quote anyone than yes I am responding to the post above me.
Who says that the death penalty is severe? Only bleeding heart liberals think it is.
If you have read the bible you would see that todays laws especially in America are very mild compared to God commanding children to being stoned for disobedience to parents, people dying for touching the Ark, for lying etc.
Romans 13 clearly shows that if man does wrong according to God's laws he is to be killed by the sword. Eye for eye tooth for tooth.
I never said the justice system was perfect and throughout history there have been flaws and always will be. But to go to the extreme of letting a serial killer go free or be allowed to live and we pay for him, while hundreds of people have to suffer due to that ONE persons actions, is wrong and doesn't even come close to making sense, even God's sense.
All actions have consequences, that is God's law! |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | Just a side note...if I do not quote anyone than yes I am responding to the post above me.
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Thanks for clarifying this for me. There was another interwoven discussion, and I was not absolutely sure who you were responding to.
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Who says that the death penalty is severe? Only bleeding heart liberals think it is.
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I have taken some time to respond to this because of the strong language. I guess I would describe myself as a liberal and would certainly be what you describe as a "bleeding heart liberal." However, what I am or what you are is not the issue. It is the truth or falsehood of what we believe that is relevant here.
Let me offer a comment on the term "bleeding heart liberal." For too long people have been using this term to end discussions rather than to open them. It is almost as if the charge against the "bleeding heart liberal" is one of effeminacy--that by being soft of evildoers--not soft on evil but soft on evildoers--"bleeding heart liberals" display a shameful moral cowardice by not boldly defending society from its enemies. But as the song goes, I've looked at life from both sides now. I've done the tough guy strut, and I can tell you as a matter of fact that there is more weakness in being a tough guy than you will ever find in one of those bleeding hearts.
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If you have read the bible you would see that todays laws especially in America are very mild compared to God commanding children to being stoned for disobedience to parents, people dying for touching the Ark, for lying etc.
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True, but this does not prove the point. I don't condone these either.
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Romans 13 clearly shows that if man does wrong according to God's laws he is to be killed by the sword. Eye for eye tooth for tooth.
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This reiterates your position and I reiterate my disagreement. Your argument would be stronger if you could prove that the Greek word "orgen" translated "wrath" means "capital punishment." Your argument would be stronger if you could prove that the word "sword" is not metaphorical. (The word is used both metaphorically and literally in the bible.) Your argument would be stronger if you could prove that the Greek "exousiais huperexousiais" clearly includes the Roman state. Your argument would be stronger if Paul's witness were not at odds with Jesus' ministry in Matthew 6:14.
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I never said the justice system was perfect and throughout history there have been flaws and always will be. But to go to the extreme of letting a serial killer go free or be allowed to live and we pay for him, while hundreds of people have to suffer due to that ONE persons actions, is wrong and doesn't even come close to making sense, even God's sense.
All actions have consequences, that is God's law! |
My dear friend, you are right. Actions do have consequences. It is simply a question of how you perceive what is extreme.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Plotinus, Romans 13 says exactly what it says it says. Only one who cannot accepts its truth has to find another meaning in the words. It needs not further explanation.
Christians should take a stand on God's word and not part of it.
We should be ruled by the bible and not mans opinions or emotions...but God's will. Obviously God put Romans 13 and all it says in the bible for a reason and other verses dealing with how serious God takes obeying his word.
I'm sorry but you are in the MINORITY on this issue. |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 769
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Romans...for clarity sake, please reference either by a quote (partial) or poster's name to whom or what you're referring. Very often there are two or more side issues going on in any one thread. Thank you. God bless.
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Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5303
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | | Just a side note...if I do not quote anyone than yes I am responding to the post above me. |
Romans, this is not always a good thing either because many times someone else will post at the same time & their post will slip in between, so then the post you are quoting is no longer just above your post.
Other times maybe you quote with out a name because their post is just up above, but it just happens that your post was just one more post than the number allowed on a page, so your post got pushed over onto the next page! Now you see it would have been much simpler had you just quoted the correct way in the first place! 
Peace bro.
Nobby
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Much Love Nobby
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Last edited by Nobby on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Romans this is not always a good thing either because many times someone else will post at the same time & their post will slip in between, so then the post you are quoting is no longer just above your post. |
I always make sure my post is the immediate one beneath the post I am responding to.
If it isn't than I go back and copy the quote and then post my post...it really isn't all that hard and confusing at all.
What is confusing is people who quote peoples post right above them especially when they are long and it takes up too much room and makes it hard to read and follow. I have NEVER had a problem with this issue on any other board I have been on |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: |
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5303
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | | I have NEVER had a problem with this issue on any other board I have been on |
Romans, you won't have any problems with it here if you do as I ask. As you said it only takes a moment!
This goes for any other members who feel they don't have time to leave a name as to who their quoting!
Those who don't know the proper way to quote can click BBCode under "Options at the lower left hand corner of this type box.
Or check it out at the top of "Noah's Lounge."
Nobby |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | | I'm sorry but you are in the MINORITY on this issue. |
LOL. Well, my friend, I have no problem with being in a minority on an issue. If I recall correctly, Christians were in a minority in the Roman empire in NT times. 
You say that the truth in a passage is clear and that's that. Well if that were true this would not need to be a bible discussion board. It could simply be a bible instruction board or a bible lets-correct-mistakes board. People of good faith--there are many here-- will disagree. I ask you to consider the fact that the perception of clarity and clarity of perception are not the same.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Eye for an Eye. |
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| holly102869 wrote: | Just wanting some input on an eye for an eye. So many people use this when they are getting even with some one.
I thought we were to turn the other cheek.
My question is that if you love your neighbor should you believe in an eye for an eye? |
Yes Eye for an Eye is valid but must be understood in a spiritual manner. For example, if we kill we must be killed. And believe it or not we are all responsible for the death of Jesus. But the life we lose is our own. This meaning the life that is OURS. Not His. In fact, we must LOSE our lives and obtain His to live ever-more. This is the perspective for which you must understand eye-for-eye. Man looks at eye-for-eye as if he has a basis to exact revenge which is not what it means at all. Anyone that exacts revenge robs from God for Vengence is His.
Paul |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus when I say minority I am not referring to all people just Christians in general and God's word. Believe me not sure you want to be the minority when it comes to that. |
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