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admin
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Joined: 28 Sep 2000
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Location: Macau, China
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 Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Singing Patriotic Songs in Church |
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Was wondering how you all felt about this. I think it's a little odd to sing patriotic songs in church, because Christianity shouldn't be involved with dividing country borders, it transcends borders.
Yet many churches sing patriotic songs, mine included. For memorial day we did God Bless America which is actually in the hymn book. I think the words were altered a bit in the hymnal.
Right after 9/11 I know a music director at a Catholic church who refused to play God Bless America when it came up in the service. He felt strongly it was inappropriate.
I side with him, but not enough to raise a stink about it too much.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that patriotic songs have no place in Church, but there is a long and proud tradition of doing this.
People always think that God loves their country the most. Whenever a war is waged, both sides always claim that God is on their side, even if (especially if?) it's a war between two Christian countries.
In other words, there's nothing new going on in your church...
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| patriotic songs in church?....absolutely not...and never should a CHRISTian pledge to the flag.... |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Hmmmm...
God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.
I'm wondering if it is so much a patriotic song as it is a prayer of intercession?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Hmmmm...
God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.
I'm wondering if it is so much a patriotic song as it is a prayer of intercession? |
Jesus considered all men to be His brothers. He did not care whether or not they were standing to the left or the right of some line drawn arbitrariliy on a map. In that sense, it is inapprorpiate to invoke God to bless ANY ONE country, since doing so is divisive. If anything, you should be invoking God to bless ALL countries.
I would expect Jesus to be totally against the notion of countries. They are just one more way to divide people and cause wars rather than bringing them together in friendship and harmony.
So I have to say that the song above is definitely a patriotic song. It can't really be a prayer because it would be an 'illegal prayer' in the sense that it supports a concept that is not compatible with Jesus' teachings.
I guess what I'm saying is that patriotism (the kind that divides people and causes wars) is not very Christian.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming.
Amen and Awomen.
-George Carlin |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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P, you are completely wrong, in so many ways...
| Quote: | | In that sense, it is inapprorpiate to invoke God to bless ANY ONE country, since doing so is divisive. |
Show me scriptural support for this. How is asking for God's blessing on anyone, or anything divisive?
Is asking His blessing equitable to saying "bless me and curse them..."? I don't think so and I do believe that is the impression you are trying to give.
| Quote: | | Jesus considered all men to be His brothers. He did not care whether or not they were standing to the left or the right of some line drawn arbitrariliy on a map. |
This is completely irrelevant. We are told to pray for our leaders, just because one prays for the leaders of one's nation does not mean they ignore the rest of the world, does it?
| Quote: | | I would expect Jesus to be totally against the notion of countries. They are just one more way to divide people and cause wars rather than bringing them together in friendship and harmony. |
I would expect that Jesus would not care one way nor the other. His kingdom is not of this world and it really wouldn't matter to him what man does as far as developing his own communities. We (Christians) are admonished to love our neighbor as ourselves and to go out into ALL NATIONS and make disciples...
| Quote: | | I guess what I'm saying is that patriotism (the kind that divides people and causes wars) is not very Christian. |
True perhaps, but why do you instantly focus on the bad, the extreme, rather than the reality of the discussion at hand?
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Here is something I've been wondering about:
If you have a family, do you pray in church for God to keep them safe, bless them, save them, or help them?
I think that lots of people do this. So if you feel strongly about your whole country, would it make sense to pray for it in church? If that's okay, then isn't it okay to sing your prayers aloud, if the other people there also feel strongly about their country?
I wonder if it's such a weird thing after all...
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | Here is something I've been wondering about:
If you have a family, do you pray in church for God to keep them safe, bless them, save them, or help them?
I think that lots of people do this. So if you feel strongly about your whole country, would it make sense to pray for it in church? If that's okay, then isn't it okay to sing your prayers aloud, if the other people there also feel strongly about their country?
I wonder if it's such a weird thing after all... |
Ana, not weird at all. One should certainly pray for their country. I do it all the time. Singing would also be appropriate, tho' some churches frown upon it. Many in the U.S. are even afraid that if they do offer prayer (or songs with prayer) to the country, they will lose their "tax-deductable" status.
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AMK
House Cat
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Patriotic songs in church |
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Good question 
personaly I think its ok as long as the song does not contain words that pull another land down or insult another land. If you are proud of the land that God has you living in, then by all means sing about it and thank God for the wonderfull land he has let you live in.
In England you often here people in church, Sing: There always be an England. There proud of there country and thankful to God for it, But at the same time it ofends many scottish,Irish and welsh people because it apears to leave them out of it. Scotland solved that proplem in 1920 when the corries wrote Flower of Scotland, which many scots today sing, But the song pulls down the english. Happily I have seldom heard this song in church.
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2048
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Every hymn I sing in church is a patriotic song. (The key, in my opinion, is in defining which kingdom we are singing about. Mine is the kingdom of God.) |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Every hymn I sing in church is a patriotic song. (The key, in my opinion, is in defining which kingdom we are singing about. Mine is the kingdom of God.) |
You're right about that. Well said.
And it's a big shame that people sing songs about false organizations, and are "patriotic" to secular systems. That obviously gets in the way of what they should be singing about.
A secular organization may be beneficial, depending on what it is. But it is definitely never something to sing about, not in that way. I suppose it would be good to sing a song about how God worked, and allude to some secular organization, depending on the story the song is telling. But to write and sing a song about a "Country" is pure nonsense. When you sing them, if it's of your own free will, you are breaking all the ten commandments. |
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Negative Overload
Big Goldfish
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Really? All ten, with a song?
Where does the coveting, theft, murder, and adultery come into it?
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*is fascinated by this concept*
Last edited by Negative Overload on Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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How nice of you to ask. Thanks. That's sporting.
Coveting. Do not covet a man the ability to live freely, and make choices, and to know himself, naturally. Do not covet him the opportunity to hear the truth about God.
Theft. These teachings have stolen our true culture from us, and steal our inheritance by robbing us of access to the bridge of God's word, which when we know it leads us to the right path of truth.
Murder. When you steal the access to life, that is the same as killing, and you're just as guilty as the wearing away (known as old age), or sickness, or weapon that does the act.
Adultery. Paul, and I think Jesus spoke of spiritual adultery. To be more precise, to sing belongs to the bride and the groom. To take that song away is to take away the rightful relationship between the bride and groom. It is really their music of love, which is created for, by and through them.
Hmm, I didn't think the adultery one would be so tight. Nice. I have to compliment the Holy Spirit on that one today, wouldn't you agree?
Have you ever heard of the Science of Life? Do you know it? It's called the Gospel, and it explains everything in a new way, establishing a new heaven and earth, and a new creation. |
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Negative Overload
Big Goldfish
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Coveting. Do not covet a man the ability to live freely, and make choices, and to know himself, naturally. Do not covet him the opportunity to hear the truth about God. |
Singing a patriotic song in church takes away your ability to hear about God? I would think you would have a lot of opportunity to do so before and after it...
Also, aren't you free to not sing along, or leave until the song's done if you don't agree with it?
| Quote: | | Theft. These teachings have stolen our true culture from us, and steal our inheritance by robbing us of access to the bridge of God's word, which when we know it leads us to the right path of truth. |
Unless the entire service is nothing but singing patriotic songs I'm not sure this would be the case.
| Quote: | | Murder. When you steal the access to life, that is the same as killing, and you're just as guilty as the wearing away (known as old age), or sickness, or weapon that does the act. |
See above.
| Quote: | | Adultery. Paul, and I think Jesus spoke of spiritual adultery. To be more precise, to sing belongs to the bride and the groom. To take that song away is to take away the rightful relationship between the bride and groom. It is really their music of love, which is created for, by and through them. |
I'm not sure I see the connection between this and the topic at hand. Were they singing during a wedding?...
Most of those seem a stretch, but I'm impressed you actually had something to cover those. *nods*
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Good show, old bean! |
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