 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
There is a letter I read:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/athenagoras-plea.html
concerning the accusations which were being brought before the emperors in the beginning of the new church days.
And a lot of things I read in hear reminds me of a lot of warnings Paul was giving to the church, so that no one could find a reason to accuse them of wrong doing.
So would the assembling of themselves together, seeing that the days of persecution and tribulations were even at the doors, for the reason of supporting one another as witnesses for each other against those who accused them falsely?
I'm not sure what Paul is saying in these verses concernign them coming together, but I believe it has something to do with being betrayed:
1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
Is he saying they should come together for the better, or for the worse?
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
so divisions and heresies are required and serve a purpose.
1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
If it's not to eat the Lord's supper then why is the Lord's supper eaten every week in church?
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 
I don't understand what is happening here..
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
His body was the church of Israel which was the twelve tribes. Is he saying then that the body of Israel or church was broken/divided..for the gentiles?
If so, I see the same being spoken of when he talks about the branches being broken off and the gentiles being grafted in.
So when we assemble together for what purpose is it?
To rebuild the body that was broken for us?
In 1Cor. chapter 12 we read about the body/church of Christ and the different divisions or functions of it. There is one body of believers but many different members.
I see these many different members as the many different denominations we all are. And some are the hand, some the foot, some the eyes..and so forth. But no one member or denomination is the whole body in itself.
so when the whole church comes together in unity..
how will this be accomplished if we keep fighting against eachother??
If the church as a whole body were to come under persecution, each part in it's own denomination to eventually try to dissemble the whole christian faith,
we would have to come together and stand member with member to prevent it from being destroyed.
Now today we have many different denominations and members. It's not bad enough each member in itself gets attacked by the world we all live in..no, what's worse is that we beat each other up and try to destroy the hand or the foot or poke the eyes out, shut up the ears..why do we do that?
so then what is the purpose of the whole church coming together into one place?
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Now the problem is..every oe is accused of being a heretic. Each member is accused of being false.
If this is true..then what does that say about the body itself?
I don't even think we realize how much damage we do to the church everytime we quarrel among the members.
What do you suppose we look like from the outside?
The other reason the members come together as stated above is to partake of the Lord's supper..and that brought to mind this verse..concerning our own cup and plate which we eat from:
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
If we're all attacking each other on the inside ..so many visions and thoughts going through my head concerning the inside of that cup..
Just give it some thought..
This forum here is a church of many members come together to break bread and share wine..
and we join together for both good days and bad days..
It's no different then attending the local church in your hometown or community.
And can you see and hear and understand how even in this place we try to tear each other down..
not realizing that when the parts of the body begin to fall, the whole body will fall too.
How many parts of a body can you cut off, pluck out, and eliminate before the whole body is dead and good for nothing?
sorry if I got off topic Zathrus,
it's just hard standing by and watching everything that the early church put their lives on the line for and died for, get taken for granted and trampled under foot.
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2275
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Fine points, lone. A little off the topic, but fine points.
We are Christ's body. And I think we all realize this in ur spirits, even if our heads won't acknowlege it. But I think we know it because we still do all come together.
But we're also still completely human, so rather than sharing ideas, benefitting from what's good and leaving what isn't, we get defensive, take stands, etc.
What you said is right. This forum is a church of many members come together to break bread and share wine.
And I would add that regardless where our thinking is at, in the spirit, the truth is we are in the presence of God, united with Him, worshipping Him in spirit and in Truth, before His throne in the Holy of Holies.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 748
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I thought this was the bible debate forum and not the fellowship and worship forum.
No offence intended Lone.
Last edited by JonMarie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 748
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus, would you please, if you wouldn't mind, clarify for me, exactly what you are saying in your first post, explicitly, in your own words, without using any scripture to substantiate your points.
I am not crystal clear on it and before jumping to wrong conclusions, let's make sure I understand you correctly.
This topic is of extreme interest to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2275
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JonMarie wrote: | Zathrus, would you please, if you wouldn't mind, clarify for me, exactly what you are saying in your first post, explicitly, in your own words, without using any scripture to substantiate your points.
I am not crystal clear on it and before jumping to wrong conclusions, let's make sure I understand you correctly.
This topic is of extreme interest to me. |
Well if you're worried you've lost your soul because you've intentionally done some grave misdeed, let me assure you that while you may have wronged others and should do what you need to do to make things right, you have not lost your salvation.
What I showed in that first post is that the writer's topic is our stance with God. In the old testament, the people were sinful and therefore separated from God. They could never come into the Holy of Holies.
This was changing because of Jesus. He was the forerunner who entered within the veil. The writer is saying that the rest of his readers would follow. They would gather in the Holiest place, in the very presence of the Lord.
This is not an outwardly visible thing, or something their physical bodies would be transported to. This is in regard to their spiritual stance with the Lord and happened in the spirit.
This gathering in the Holiest place is what the writer admonished his readers not to forsake, not church services. His readers were a group of believers who were growing doubtful because Christ's promise of covenantal transformation hadn't come to pass yet. The writer admonished them not to abandon their hope, not to forsake following and gathering into the Holy of Holies.
The readers of the epistle to the Hebrews were enlightened by the gospel. They knew that the law of the old covenant only made all men guilty of sin, and their hope of righteousness was in Christ alone. IN verse 26, the writer tells them that to turn back to the old covenant would mean there was no hope of righteousness before God. Forsaking the true gathering in the heavenly, spiritual Holiest place and going back to what they knew was only a shadow of the real thing was willfull sin.
What was a shadow is now long gone. There is no more Levitical priesthood, no earthly temple, and no carnal ordinance. We believers enjoy the heavenly reality, the fulfillment of those things which were shadows, restored fellowship with God and the privelige of living always as a priest in God's presence in the most Holy place.
I hope that clarified things. I suggest reading the whole epistle of Hebrews keeping in mind the writer's topic is this restored fellowship with God and access to the Most Holy place which is the right of every believer today. Don't read statements like verse 25 and 26 as isolated statements having nothing to do with what the writer said before or after. Follow his reasoning as you read. I think that will help make it even clearer.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 748
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus, do you have me confused with someone else?
If not would you please explain the following statement: | Quote: | | Well if you're worried you've lost your soul because you've intentionally done some grave misdeed, let me assure you that while you may have wronged others and should do what you need to do to make things right, you have not lost your salvation. |
Thank you for your clarification on Hebrews 10:26.
I agree that to understand a verse the whole context must be considered and perhaps the whole book, as well as to whom, the writer is speaking. As you mentioned, the writer of Hebrews was addressing a group of enlightened believers.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
Can this then be understood to say - there is no longer needed an offering for sin?
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
...blood and pure water, from His wounded side which flowed, be for sin a double cure, save from wrath and make me pure.
...being santicified, a process over time? or a instant one time act? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2275
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JonMarie wrote: | If not would you please explain the following statement: | Quote: | | Well if you're worried you've lost your soul because you've intentionally done some grave misdeed, let me assure you that while you may have wronged others and should do what you need to do to make things right, you have not lost your salvation. |
|
No mistake. Just a little humor, JonMarie. Whenever someone wants to know about Heb 10:26 and tells you it's very important to them to know, what's the first thing you think of? This person is afraid they've sinned away their salvation.
| JonMarie wrote: | | Can this then be understood to say - there is no longer needed an offering for sin? |
Definitely. The writer was letting his readers know that their sins were remitted as promised in prophecy, and there was no need to go back to their Jewish system of worship where sacrifices had to be offered for sin every year.
| JonMarie wrote: | | ...being santicified, a process over time? or a instant one time act? |
Whether instant or over time, I hate to even get in that debate. The verse you quoted says we're sanctified by one offering. That tells me it's not something I have to worry about. It is something that was accomplished or is accomplished in my life by the death of Jesus on the cross. I don't speculate as to how or when it happens. I just know He's got it all taken care of and I receive it with thanksgiving.
Look at verse 19 which you quoted. Would it be possible to have that boldness if the sanctification were not complete?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 748
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus: | Quote: | | This person is afraid they've sinned away their salvation. |
no, I just am very passionate about this, all to often misquoted and misunderstood, section of scripture.
If someone has made a provision to give me 1 million dollars, it doesn't make me rich, unless I am willing to receive it. Or more clearly put, like Ray Comfort said- if I am on a plane that is going to crash and someone gives me a parachute it will not do me much good if I don't put it on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: reply |
|
|
I guess Hebrews 10:26-29 have been controversial verses for years. A little food for thought: What is willful sin and can this kind of sin make us lose salvation? I believe these verses apply to Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Remember, these Jerwish believers were born again and spirit-filled. Paul was warning them not to return to Judiasm, which would be willingly denying Christ and His work on the cross. If this kind of sin was many sins, then 1 John 1:9 would be of no effect, and we know that can't be true. I believe this sin is the unpardonable sin, which if committed there is no longer forgiveness because Jesus died once and can't die again. Does this apply to Gentile believers? Of course. Why? I believe the Epistles are talking to us, the Body of Christ. But there are caveats to these verses. Just look at Heb. 6:4-6 and one can see what are the requirements for losing one's salvation. also, I really don't think this happens that much, but it is possible.
Peace, Golfjack |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 748
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The once and for all, I believe, was the provision, ( the power made available) to take away sin, not a license to continue in sin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2275
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Re: reply |
|
|
| golfjack wrote: | | Remember, these Jerwish believers were born again and spirit-filled. Paul was warning them not to return to Judiasm, which would be willingly denying Christ and His work on the cross. |
Amen golfjack. I think that is the important thing to understand as we're reading these verses, and in fact the whole book of Hebrews.
Not that that means the book has no application for us Gentile believers. Through Abraham's seed, all of us are blessed. Salvation came through his seed, through faith in Christ and not by the works of the law.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: reply |
|
|
As far as having a license to sin, I don't need one because I probably sin enough in the flesh.
Peace, Golfjack |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 748
Location: Pa.
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lone: | Quote: | And can you see and hear and understand how even in this place we try to tear each other down..
not realizing that when the parts of the body begin to fall, the whole body will fall too.
How many parts of a body can you cut off, pluck out, and eliminate before the whole body is dead and good for nothing? |
The path becomes increasingly narrow because as we draw closer to God we are drawn closer to each other.
For most of us on this forum, I believe it is our goal to draw closer to God, not to tear each other down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
