The Crucifixion

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

hello
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

Tiger75 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:05 am Post subject: Re: The Crucifixion

Van · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:25 am Post subject:

Excellent post Tiger75.

I am going to repeat what I posted at the start.

Salvation from the consequences of sin has several components. First, because we are born in a sinful state, being "in Adam" we are separated from our holy God. Next, because we volitionally sin, our trespasses result in punishment for our deeds in the hereafter.

The premise I proposed at the start of the thread was to consider how God might deal with those he influenced to bring about his foretold events.
He hardened Pharohs heart, he hardened the heart of some Jews to bring the gospel to the gentiles. He influenced Judas. Perhaps He prevented those Jesus was praying for from understanding what they did in order to bring it about.

Now here is the thought: Could Jesus have requested that they be forgiven for they knew not what they did, in that they would not be punished for those sins in hell. So forgiveness not like justification in the blood of Christ, but forgiveness of specific acts such that they were not punished in hell for those deeds. God has mercy on whom he has mercy.

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

Christ is God? he and the father are one? ergo when he says father forgive them they are forgiven? right or wrong?

again without any more spin, what good does it do to forgive them since they do not recoqnize Christ and so they are doomed to hell or isn't that the case?
I don't understand what revelance other parts of the Bible have to this simple question It stands alone as a graphic statement of profound importance.
if indeed they are forgiven, it then must mean that it is not necessary to believe in Christ to be saved or else why bother to forgive them cause they are doomed since the obvously don't believe in Christ.
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ftvvil

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

to Van
I suppose you have to wonder why God who wants people to do
what is right would want people who he has come to earth to save be denied the opportunity to be saved because he has hardened their hearts.

That to me begs the question why would he not want them to believe.

Now I know we are not able to understand God fully or his intentions but with the brain which he has given us surley he expects us to reason to the best of our abalities.

Is it just possible that we are to understand the Bible as alagory and not true history. In other words we are to take the lessons of the Bible and learn from that and not read it necessarily as events or as history?
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ftvvil

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

You are arguing seperate issues OT and NT, Old covenant and New covenent.

God hardened pharohs heart but this was OT, before the life, death and resurrection of Christ so your question as to why God didn't want him to have the opportunity to be saved is moot.

I could be wrong but I have seen nothing in the NT which tells us God hardened someone's heart and in essence denied them the opportunity to be saved.

and then:

Van · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:53 pm Post subject:

Van · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject:

RevJp wrote, "I could be wrong but I have seen nothing in the NT which tells us God hardened someone's heart and in essence denied them the opportunity to be saved."

Romans 11:25 indicates God had partially hardened the hearts of the Jews to allow the fulness of the Gentiles to come to salvation. See also Romans 11:7-11.

I agree with your point that the hardening of hearts to bring God's plan of salvation to fruition ended with the end of the Apostlitic Age.

What I was trying to address is the issue that Atheists bring up about apparent injustice. All I was suggesting is the possiblity that God would not punish them for their actions done under the controlling influence of God. Not a very big deal really. And to repeat, I am not talking about being switched from hell to heaven, but only about a reduction is the amount of punishment in hell.

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

rev jp
we are argueing semantics. Salvation and forgiveness. What is the gain of forgiveness without the value associated with it ergo the chance to be saved.

what good is forgiveness if the forgiven are doomed to hell because they do not believe in Christ.

Now if you will agree that it is not necessary to believe in Christ to avoid damnation I can buy your arguement.

You do something bad to me and I forgive you then I Wack you with a bat.

I am having a big problem in believing that 4 out of five of my fellow humans are doomed to eternal damnation, what ever that entails, because at the present time and since the time of Christ they have not believed in him. What a horrible ego trip for us Christians to believe that. God who loves each and every one of us equally. That is the thrust of my question about Christ asking His Father to forgive the cruscifiers. please excuse my spelling.
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ftvvil

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Forgiveness and salvation are completely different entities - it is in no way an argument of semantics. Forgiveness is not salvation, but it is a part of it. Forgiveness is also a seperate act - completely unrelated to salvation depending on its circumstances.

More later unless someone wants to jump in...
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JP's Mind - my blog

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

revjp

i agree that salvation and forgiveness are different when they apply to you and I because we can forgive but not save someone elses soul
Christ in essence forgave them of their sin of not believing in him and for killing him. If you and I did that it would be very nice but when God does this it means much more because it obsolves them of their sin as well as pardon for their deed. This is the sin of not believing in him which you bible thumpers say is necessary for salvation.
I compares this to us finding some poor guy in the desert dying and we give him a hunk of bread and then not give him water to drink. what good is the forgiveness if salvation is not also given. the man in the desert dies of thirst with a hunk of bread in his hand so what good did we do?

Yes there is an alagory there about forgiving someone who has wronged us but in Gods situation it implies much much more.
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ftvvil

Van · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:11 am Post subject:

When I die, I want to just go to sleep and feel no pain or suffering. I do not want to twitch and writhe and pray to God, please take me, I have suffered enough. I have listened to those prayers and it is not fun. So mercy and forgiveness and a reduction in suffering could be granted by God to those that pierced Jesus which would fall short of salvation just as a peaceful death falls short of not dying.

To continue to ignore this point, is to mimic the warden in the prison who was being deliberately obtuse. To maintain that this has to be all or nothing, salvation or eternal suffering ignores scripture and betrays an agenda based on denial of truth. Men can do this but God has to do that which seems injust. Blather.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

ftvvil,

If you take your concept of eternal torment away, is there still an objection to the idea that God would forgive his crucifiers? Several times Jesus speaks of degrees of punishment.

I think you should also consider who's forgivness Jesus is asking. Was it the sanhedrin who handed him over, the crowd who selected Jesus to be the one to die, or the soldiers who were jus following orders.

If the Bible doesn't record someone's response to Jesus, does that mean there was none? John said volumes more could have been written. And there were responses. The soldier said surley this was the Son of God. In Acts Jews repented, preists converted. Yet miracles were not the moving force in one's belief in Jesus. It happened when God revealed himself to them. Just as Jesus said to Peter on his confession.

Analyis has little to do with faith.
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

gswisher

Faith with analysis is what the people at james town had and what the crazy arabs have and those who predict the end is near and what some bible thumpers have.
God gave us a brain to analyse and to think. Faith based on feelings is faith run amock.
What one person believes the Holy spirit says may be a figment of a delusioned mind. "No insult intended"
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ftvvil

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

Van
thats an interesting concept that there are degrees of suffering or levels of paradise.

is this your own conclusion or is there reference to this in the bible?

question to ask I guess is, is there are different levels of punishment, then are they for ever, like does one level include burning in a hot hell or say a lesser level, or some other lesser term than eternal punisment. I can't think of any level I would care to exist on for all eternity.

Maybe the Catholic concept of pergatory is not so far fetched.

Mostly I hear "do this or do that" or burn in hell for ever. Maybe yes or maybe no, but I hope that God is more like the kind loving God I picture who loves me and all of his children like I love mine.

I rebel when some one tries to scare me into believing. Or tells me to fear God. I see too much around me the belies a mean despotic God.
Things like my baby, my beautiful wife, my flowers, the sunset , the human eye, or the creatures at the bottom of the sea. The list is endless. Only man creats ugleness. a God of creation who produced such marvels for us to enjoy does not comply with the God of the OT.
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ftvvil