The New Birth

JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 747 Location: Pa.

Pete:

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

Hi JonMarie,

"So then are you saying that the Holy Spirit calls everyone and some resist while others do not?"
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Yes. When Jesus describes the work of the Holy Spirit in John 16, one of the things he tells us is that the Spirit will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment (v.8). Not just those who would believe, but the world. It's my conviction that every person is convicted by the Holy Spirit to a sufficient degree that if his working is resisted once and for all, God will be able to say of that person as Jesus did of the people of Jerusalem "how often have I desired to gather . . . and you were not willing" (Mt. 23:37-39).

There are some who view God's purposes in a deterministic manner, as though what he desires cannot be thwarted or resisted. I don't think such a view squares with what the Bible describes. For example, there is a passage in Luke 7 after John the Baptist has sent messengers to see if Jesus really was the promised Messiah. After they left, Jesus began to talk to the crowd about John. Those in the crowd, even the outcast tax collectors, who had been baptized by John were pleased with what Jesus had to say. But the religious experts, the scribes and Pharisees, were apparently not too pleased. And the reason, we are told, is that by refusing to be baptized by John they "rejected God's purpose for themselves" (v.30).
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"Yet there are those who sought Him then and seek Him now. I have seen both, those who walk away and those who follow after. Are those who walk away of the variety that resist?"
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Yes, there are people who seek. But even that desire, that seeking, is an indication of the Spirit's work. It is not a natural desire in us. Paul describes the natural condition of human beings in a variety of ways which bring out their native lostness, but one of the phrases he uses which has always seemed powerful to me is "having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12). People seeking God (and not merely their concept of a god) are not acting on natural impulse, but on Spirit-initiated grace.

Those who walk away do, at least for the time being, resist. That does not mean God stops pursuing them, or that they cannot one day give up their resistance to him.
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"Arminians believe that? [100% God's grace]"
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Yes, though they are sometimes accused of not believing that; and some who call themselves Arminian may actually be sub-Arminian in their doctrine if they deny it is all of God's grace. John Wesley himself once wrote "in his natural state every man born into the world is a rank idolater" and stated "whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it". His brother, Charles Wesley, wrote about the initiating grace of God is poetic terms as the "quickening ray" which comes into the dungeon to awaken the soul dead in sin and held captive by Satan, in his hymn "And Can It Be". And Arminius himself had much to say about man's innate inability to turn to God apart from the working of God's grace first.

So the bumper sticker "100% Grace" isn't only reserved for Calvinists.
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You quoted my comment:
Our mortal minds have a hard time making these two strands of Bible doctrine fit together in a nice, neat system; but the Bible isn't intended to provide nice, neat answers to solve our rational curiosity . . . it is meant to reveal God as he actually is, and let us know of his eternal purpose which centers on Christ and the salvation he has procured for us.

And then said "I will agree if you will substitute carnal for rational."
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I used rational intentionally. The natural man has a real desire for rational and rationalistic answers to satisfy his own curiosity and intellect. But the sinner's mind is a fallen mind. It has been impacted by the deadly effects of sin. Apart from Christ, people live in "the futility of their minds", "they are darkened in their understanding" (Eph. 4). God has given them up to a debased mind (Roman 1).

Now, the Christian has a mind which is being renewed according to Paul (in Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians) but it's a work in progress. Sometimes we slip into a "rational" mindset which wants to be able to have all the pieces of the puzzle in place and every i dotted and every t crossed to suit us. But even for believers, the Bible doesn't present itself as a book intended to meet our demands for rational answers to our questions. It presents itself as a revelation of God, from God, to tell us the way it really is -- whether it seems rational to us or not.

That doesn't mean the Bible is irrational. It just means the Bible is beyond rational. Its goal is not to cater to our intellects, but to expand them. It tends to make the wisdom of the world look pretty foolish, and the foolishness of God look pretty wise (see 1 Cor. 1).

JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 747 Location: Pa.

Don, I believe that God is all knowing.

In regard to your post, I cannot see the difference between the "natural man"
and the "carnal man".

Matthew 23:37 does not fit it with the irresistable grace of God, which is the "I" in tulip of the calvinistic teachings. I agree with you and believe that Matt 23:37 proves that the grace of God can be resisted. As well as Hebrews 12:15

Don: