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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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james said.......
| Quote: | "I believe in Gods eyes men and women are equal. Biblically the duties and placement of men and women are different, but different does not mean unequal. God has set instructions for women in scripture and instructions for men, only in our minds do we see it as unequal, God see it as equal."
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and I say.........Amen!
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 116
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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In the Family of god, men and women are equal.
Jesus said that in heaven there is no gender.
However in this life, we each have roles. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 680
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: A Disciple of Christ |
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BEREAN versus BLIND FOLLOWER
Personally, if I may join the conversation, I prefer to look to Christ as my guide in all things spiritual. Sure, Paul is nice for certain things... but even the Bereans didn't take his word as the final authority. No way. They searched the Scriptures (the Old Testament) daily to see if what he said aligned with the Word of God. And they were considered noble for that.
I think it's wise to compare everything Paul said against Jesus and the Old Testament, because if Paul did not speak according to the Word, then there is no light in what he is saying.
CHRISTIAN versus PAULIAN
Oops, as you can probably tell... I am not a disciple of Paul, and I do not consider myself a Paulian. Nope... I consider myself a Christian. Which means I base my beliefs on Christ's teaching, not Paul's. Sure, I accept what Paul says, but only when his teaching aligns with Jesus' and the Old Testament - otherwise, I don't base my belief system or my doctrines solely on the things he wrote.
ONLY HALF OF THE CONVERSATION
After all, we only have letters from Paul, which addressed very specific situations and answered very specific questions... neither of which we are privy to. It's like hearing one half of a telephone conversation, where it's easy to misunderstand the points being made, and even easier to draw wrong conclusions. So, I am as careful with Paul's letters as I would be with a telephone conversation. So if there's a question about something I don't quite understand in Paul's letters, I go to the source: to Christ and the Old Testament.
HERE'S THE CHALLENGE
So I would offer a challenge to those engaged in this debate: Let us look to the Old Testament (the source from which Paul drew his teaching) and to Christ (whose Spirit I believe inspired the Old Testament), in order to determine what they say on the matter.
Try and determine how Jesus felt about women, and then see how God spoke about and treated them in the Old Testament. This might prove to be an enlightening experience for all of us. My wife said we should consider Deborah as a Scriptural example. You can check her out in the the fourth chapter of Judges.
:) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Am I to understand that you choose to determine which portions of His Holy Inspired Word you will and will not accept and apply?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 116
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Am I to understand that you choose to determine which portions of His Holy Inspired Word you will and will not accept and apply? |
It does sound that way.
If you don't like a portion or facet of God's Word / Will, then simply delete it, or dis-credit it? |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 680
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: We All Make the Choice |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Am I to understand that you choose to determine which portions of His Holy Inspired Word you will and will not accept and apply? |
This is a difficult question to answer, JP, because it's a "loaded question" - that is, it's loaded with a lot of your own preconceived notions that (should I not agree with your particular notions) will appear to discredit my answer.
But I'll try to answer it, nonetheless.
THE COLD HARD FACTS
You and I read English translations of the Scriptures, which were translated by various Christian denominations and organizations with specific theological objectives, via ancient documents written in archaic languages, without the benefit of having even one single original copy. And yes, I keep these facts in mind as I read the Scriptures.
THE SUPERSTITION OF INFALLIBILITY
Does that mean I discredit English translations? No, not at all. But I do not elevate English translations to a god-like status of infallibility, either. That's why I try to focus on Scriptural principles, and why I lean toward clear passages that make unequivocal sense. That's also why I take time to figure out what the Word of God doesn't say, so I don't read into it something that isn't there.
THE SECURITY OF MY SALVATION
In other words, the security of my salvation does not depend on the infallibility of an English translation of God's Word. This very issue has been discussed at length with certain member's insistence on following the "King James Only." But rather, my salvation rests securely on Jesus Christ and on what He has accomplished alone... regardless of which translation I read.
MY PURPOSE FOR READING SCRIPTURE
I do not read Scripture in order to prove my doctrines or affirm my beliefs. I read Scripture to learn about God. And I read Scripture to learn about God's character and attitude. And I read Scripture to learn about how God treats His children. And I read Scripture with the sole intention of emulating His character and adopting His attitude, so that I might treat His children in the same fashion.
GOD'S INVITATION
But, understand, that I don't come to Scripture blindly. When God invited me to "Come, and let us reason together," He did not expect me to put my brain on the back burner and just blindly accept everything written in an English translation. That's why I keep seeking. And that's why I keep knocking. And that's why I keep asking. Because I believe God wants me to understand and apply His Word as He meant it... not necessarily as it was translated by a particular denominational organization.
THE TRUTH OF YOUR STATEMENT
You asked, "Am I to understand that you choose to determine which portions of His Holy Inspired Word you will and will not accept and apply? If we were true men of God, you and I, who had enough integrity to obey God and only tell the truth, then every one of us would have to answer, without hesitation, "Yes, I choose to determine which portions of His holy inspired Word I will and will not accept and apply."
Why would we say such a thing? Because the truth of the matter is, JP, we choose not to keep God's Sabbath, because it's too inconvenient for us. We choose not to wash each others feet, because it's too degrading for us. We choose not to love our enemies, because it asks us to sacrifice too much of ourselves. We choose to continue fornicating with our girlfriends, because it satisfies our flesh. We choose to bite and rip and tear each other's throats out on these forums, because it's what we enjoy.
We do all of this, consciously, in spite of what God says in His Word.
We choose, every moment of every day, which portions of God's holy inspired Word we will and will not accept and apply.
So, you see, my friend, the answer to that loaded question is... Yes. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Simple clarification that you choose to ignore all writings by Paul would have been sufficient, but I suppose you knew that answer would have been met with scriptural and theological opposition.
| Quote: | | I think it's wise to compare everything Paul said against Jesus and the Old Testament, because if Paul did not speak according to the Word, then there is no light in what he is saying. |
I think it is wise to review what commission Paul was given on the road to Damascus before one, who is not a Jew, chooses to rip his writings out of the Bible.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 680
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Don't Put Words in My Mouth, Please |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Simple clarification that you choose to ignore all writings by Paul would have been sufficient. |
I never said that I choose to ignore all writings by Paul, JP. I hold Paul's writings near and dear to my heart. But, I don't hold them to the same superstitious level as some.
I do not ignore Paul's writings in the least. So, please don't assume that I do. I simply view Scripture from a different angle than most. That's all.
Thank you. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 116
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Since there are no discrepancies between what God gave to each of the holy men to reveal in God's Written Word: I see no reason to be dissing any of them. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP stated: | Quote: | | Am I to understand that you choose to determine which portions of His Holy Inspired Word you will and will not accept and apply? |
GospelCompilation was speaking about Paul and listed valid points as to why many Christians do question some of Pauls teachings or wonder aloud if they are valid today.
We don't know why Paul wrote those letters to the congregations so long ago. We don't even really know half of what was going on at that time. Applying those letters down to the last detail to our lives today is like taking a letter of instruction or rebuke that was passed down from your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather and insisting that your family live exactly according to his instructions even though so much has changed over the past several hundred years. He left no explanation as to why the letter was written but he was addressing a group of people who lived and died hundreds of years before you were born.
It is a fact that Paul knowingly stated his own opinion at times. By contrast, Jesus was inspired by and spoke words given to him by God.
I find it curious that anyone who questions any of the teachings of Paul is automatically accused of cherry-picking. Many of Pauls teachings may indeed have been inspired. Paul was, however, just a man. Not a perfect man but in fact, a very passionate and opinionated man. He wrote letters to many of his congregations addressing those churches at that time.....thousands of years ago.
It has been my experience that most Christians cherry-pick when it comes to the OT. (Oh, yeah... let's keep the 10 commandments. Those are good and still apply but I'm not sure about all those levitical laws or observing the Sabbath etc...). It's the pot calling the kettle black.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Simple clarification that you choose to ignore all writings by Paul would have been sufficient, but I suppose you knew that answer would have been met with scriptural and theological opposition.
| Quote: | | I think it's wise to compare everything Paul said against Jesus and the Old Testament, because if Paul did not speak according to the Word, then there is no light in what he is saying. |
I think it is wise to review what commission Paul was given on the road to Damascus before one, who is not a Jew, chooses to rip his writings out of the Bible. |
I think you might just be totatlly missing the point, JP.
I haven't seen anyone say 'let's rip all of Pauls writings out of the bible.'
I think we should acknowledge that Paul was not perfect. I also think it's important to understand that Paul was addressing specific events and groups of people thousands of years ago. Some of what he taught then may very well have been applicable then but not so much now. Laws are different, women now work and fight right along side men and women overall are more educated than the women years ago were. Women in bygone era's did not have the same educational opportunities that women now have.
My grandmother, for example, was born just over 100 years ago. She did not have the same level of education as men of that era did. The fact is that my Grandmother, like many women then, could barely read. Grandpa read to her. She never learned to drive. Grandpa drove her anywhere she wanted to go. She was a mother and a wife. My Grandfather went to work and gave her a weekly allowance to pay bills with and buy groceries. What a stark contrast to the way we live today. So much has changed.
Why didn't Jesus give these instructions himself if they were meant to be carried on by all future generations?
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints
Last edited by Luvnlife on Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 116
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | ...
It has been my experience that most Christians cherry-pick when it comes to the OT. (Oh, yeah... let's keep the 10 commandments. Those are good and still apply but I'm not sure about all those levitical laws or observing the Sabbath etc...). It's the pot calling the kettle black.
Luv |
It seems to me that most 'Christians' are not able to conquer all of the ten commandments. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife I think that James summed it up very well.
| James wrote: | | I believe in Gods eyes men and women are equal. Biblically the duties and placement of men and women are different, but different does not mean unequal. God has set instructions for women in scripture and instructions for men, only in our minds do we see it as unequal, God see it as equal." |
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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We need to keep in mind, that this is God’s Word, that we are talking about:
luvnlife said....
| Quote: | “We don't know why Paul wrote those letters to the congregations so long ago.”
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--------------------------------------------------
Paul, didn’t write these letters, he just penned them.
God was the author of these letters, that Paul simply wrote down or dictated.
| Quote: | 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."
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_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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| Back to top |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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BigApe said: | Quote: | We need to keep in mind, that this is God’s Word, that we are talking about:
luvnlife said....
“We don't know why Paul wrote those letters to the congregations so long ago.”
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Luv responded: | Quote: | We also need to keep in mind that these letters were not intended for us. They were written to his congregations thousands of years ago.
-------------------------------------------------- |
BigApe said: | Quote: | Paul, didn’t write these letters, he just penned them.
God was the author of these letters, that Paul simply wrote down or dictated.
2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."
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Luv responded: | Quote: | | Paul sometimes gave his own opinions. I believe that most of what Paul presented was inspired but he was human. Some things that Paul stated were merely opinion. |
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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