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holly102869
Show Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 270
Location: Central, Florida USA
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 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all of the guidance on this question for me.I like all of the resoponses I got.
45 | Quote: | exchanging evil for good is demonic
exchanging evil for evil is the human way
exchanging good for good is the fair way (Phileo)
exchanging good for evil is the divine way.(agape)
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I really like how you put this.
Zathrus,
Excellent post!! |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 840
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| holly102869 wrote: | Thanks for all of the guidance on this question for me.I like all of the resoponses I got.
45 | Quote: | exchanging evil for good is demonic
exchanging evil for evil is the human way
exchanging good for good is the fair way (Phileo)
exchanging good for evil is the divine way.(agape)
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I really like how you put this.
Zathrus,
Excellent post!! |
I agree. Thinking about the different Greek words for love, like phileo and agape, reminds me of one other: xenia, the love of, or expression of generosity towards, those outside one's own community. So much of the exchange of evil for evil or evil for good is directed at those who are not in our own community. So I might add that the opposite of xenia is xenophobia, the expression of fear or hostility towards the outsider. And that goes to the heart of number 2 in the quote above:
exchanging evil for evil (or evil for good) promotes xenophobia.
exchanging good for evil (or good for good) promotes xenia. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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This thread blessed my heart.
Thankyou
hugs
lone |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Many commandments were given to uphold the laws of the land, as far as eye for an eye and such nothing has changed in that regard. Romans 13 tells us to obey the Government.
As far as turn the other cheek Jesus is giving this commandment not to the rulers at the time, but to individuals.
It isn't as simple as turn the other cheek or the death penalty at whim.
I would see it that our laws should be severe and quick in order to maintain a sense of obedience to authority, and respect for our fellow man and society. So I see nothing wrong in the death penalty or any kind of punishment fitting the crime.
But as a believer I must make sure if I am violated I am to forgive and turn the other cheek....and I actually was as a new believer (I was almost raped and murdered, if it wasn't for running away several times and for stabbing the guy with his own knife as he was hitting me with a hammer) Anyway I never wished ill will on him, nor had one single nightmare. I went before the courts did my part and prayed God would do his. And pretty much went along with the rest of my life....thank God I was a strong new believer as I honestly believe true forgiveness can only come from God. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Key of Twilight
Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Now don't quote me on this, and if it has already been said sorry for repeating it, but...
How I have come to understand the scenario is that You are to turn your cheek forgive the other person and leave the Eye for an eye bit up to God. I found this kind of hard to swallow if the person constantly repeated the same thing over and over until I read this...
""Peter asked Jesus how many times should he forgive his brother and he thought maybe seven times might be a fair limit. But Jesus said "seventy times seven" which of course does not literally mean 490 times, but rather that the number of times are not to be counted (Mtt 18:21-22). This is our Lord's principle of forgiveness, and we may be certain that he did not bind it only upon Peter, but also upon himself."" |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Just because one is asked to forgive (which can only be done throuhg the power of the Holy Spirit by the way) doesn't mean there are NOT consequences for sin.
If your child does wrong do you just say "oh I will forgive you go along and play now and it doesn't matter that hurt so and so or that you stoled, lied and you fill in the blank. Of course all SIN requires consequences whether they come from God or our governing powers to be.
In order to keep society safe the death penalty is one way of doing so, and setting an example for others. I just think it should be on a case to case basis and lack of remorse would be a good indicator of who gets it. |
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FuzzyTurret
Newbie Alert
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| I always thought that the 'eye for an eye bit' was meant as a means to uphold OT law. But unless you believe that OT law still applies to you, this shouldn't matter. |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 840
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Key of Twilight wrote: | | In order to keep society safe the death penalty is one way of doing so, and setting an example for others. I just think it should be on a case to case basis and lack of remorse would be a good indicator of who gets it. |
Thanks for your comments. I agree that "an eye for an eye" should be left to God. For this reason, I'm not in favor of the death penalty. Also part of the reason -- other than the issue of simple morality -- is that it fails to accomplish some of the things that you mention. Although you are right. It does set an example for others. It teaches us that it is ok to kill another human being if we don't like that person. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Actually I wrote that not Key of twilight.
Anyway I am 100% sure that if someone you loved was murdered unprovoked, say a small child you would feel differently about the death penalty.....just a thought. Especially if that person never showed any remorse. I am not saying this has ever happened to me because it hasn't. I just know there are some people who are just EVIL no matter what is done to them (Charles Manson comes to mind) and why should we as a society have to pay for their free room and board? And why do we have OVER crowed prisons? Because our justice system is horrible and we do not punish the way most countries do. America has one the highest crime rate among any other country (some countries like Africa just kill off their own) because we are TOO soft on crime.
Heck children in the bible were stoned to death for disobeying parents...that is some pretty serious stuff, yet we condone the likes of Charles Manson, Ted Bundie, Jeffery Domner, and sick child molester killers?
Whatever! |
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Key of Twilight
Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | Actually I wrote that not Key of twilight.
Anyway I am 100% sure that if someone you loved was murdered unprovoked, say a small child you would feel differently about the death penalty.....just a thought. Especially if that person never showed any remorse. I am not saying this has ever happened to me because it hasn't. I just know there are some people who are just EVIL no matter what is done to them (Charles Manson comes to mind) and why should we as a society have to pay for their free room and board? And why do we have OVER crowed prisons? Because our justice system is horrible and we do not punish the way most countries do. America has one the highest crime rate among any other country (some countries like Africa just kill off their own) because we are TOO soft on crime.
Heck children in the bible were stoned to death for disobeying parents...that is some pretty serious stuff, yet we condone the likes of Charles Manson, Ted Bundie, Jeffery Domner, and sick child molester killers?
Whatever! |
You say we "Condone" them, but are you not judging them as unworthy of being saved by putting them to death? It is unbelievably hard to do this at times specially if you are the victim or close to the victim, but do not underestimate the power of God's ability to change people's heart. Many people find God while locked up.... And on the side of the Victims they just need to raise it up to God for help because whether or not the culprit is put to death they are not going to heal their own hearts on their own... IMO there is no one that is "just Evil" the evil is in the act and in the heart. Some people may have mental deficiencies that would make recovery much harder but God can find a way....
Last edited by Key of Twilight on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 840
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | Actually I wrote that not Key of twilight.
Anyway I am 100% sure that if someone you loved was murdered unprovoked, say a small child you would feel differently about the death penalty.....just a thought. Especially if that person never showed any remorse. I am not saying this has ever happened to me because it hasn't. I just know there are some people who are just EVIL no matter what is done to them (Charles Manson comes to mind) and why should we as a society have to pay for their free room and board? And why do we have OVER crowed prisons? Because our justice system is horrible and we do not punish the way most countries do. America has one the highest crime rate among any other country (some countries like Africa just kill off their own) because we are TOO soft on crime.
Heck children in the bible were stoned to death for disobeying parents...that is some pretty serious stuff, yet we condone the likes of Charles Manson, Ted Bundie, Jeffery Domner, and sick child molester killers?
Whatever! |
My apologies Romans (and K of T), for getting you switched in my head.
Romans, let me respond to your first point as best I can. First of all, while no relative of mine has been murdered (thank God), I have had two friends who have been murdered. I do not seek the deaths of those who did these deeds. Your 100% percent assurance that I would change my mind if my child were killed does not convince me. If my child were killed, my life would be turned upside down. I would probably go through a period of such extreme pain that I would cease to function. However--I cannot prove this because it hasn't happened--I would not seek the death of the person who did it. That person would have been someone's small child also. That person would probably be loved by someone, despite his (or her) faults. That person would be a child of God! Yes, even that person, so I believe. So seek the death of that person would be to desire another version of the same crime that that person has inflicted on me and those I love.
Perhaps I'll have a chance to respond to your other points in a later post. Take care, my new friend Romans. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Forgiveness is for the forgiver not the recipient of the forgiveness. The action that causes the need for forgiveness is still something between that person and God and they will still have to deal with Him in the end.
Remember the "Lord's prayer" if we dont forgive then we cannot be forgiven ourselves. For whatever measure we can forgive others is the same measured out to us. Everyone of us is in need of forgiveness. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Good points 45.
I was tempted to jump into the 'death penalty' discussion, but I didn't want to move the discussion to far away from the OP...
For the record, I don't think Plot is on the right track... |
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Key of Twilight
Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Forgiveness is for the forgiver not the recipient of the forgiveness. The action that causes the need for forgiveness is still something between that person and God and they will still have to deal with Him in the end.
Remember the "Lord's prayer" if we dont forgive then we cannot be forgiven ourselves. For whatever measure we can forgive others is the same measured out to us. Everyone of us is in need of forgiveness. |
I find this inaccurate Forgiveness is for all. If you do something against me I should forgive you. That forgiveness is for me and from me to you. Now this does not resolve the issue with God for you still need forgiveness from him, but to just to forgive someone so that you can be forgiven does not seem right, it makes it seem ingenuine.... |
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