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beloved57
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 256
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: A characteristic of antichrist |
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1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This is a very revealing passage of scripture, one that the election of grace can bank on.
One of the key tenants of the christian religon is who Jesus christ really is ?
Who is the person of christ ?
Jesus christ was the first man [according to his humanity] created by God, or begotten of God..
This he specifies in rev 3:
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus christ human soul was brought forth in eternity to be united with flesh and blood and become the sacrifice of Gods people for their sins..
This man soul was united and became one with The Divine Son of God, the second person in the trinity, Hence He was setup from everlasting as the GodMan Mediator...
His manhood however is emphasied in 1 jn 4 it was the ManGod who came in the flesh, the anointed messiah..
Thats why it reads, he that confesseth not that Jesus christ is come in the flesh is not of God. Jesus christ is His man name as mediator.
1 tim 2:
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Jesus christ was a man before he took on flesh and blood..Listen to the man Jesus christ before his incarnation..
heb 10:
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies
You see, a body does not make a man, but the man the body..
The body is Just a covering for the man, notice jobs words..
job 10:
11Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
This is a very special truth that only the elect will be given grace to believe and understand.
Again, this is in regards to the humanity of christ, that it was begotten from eternity out of the GodHead..
False religon today teaches and or condones the lie that God The Son in His Deity was begotten of God the Father, but thats Blasphemy, God the Son is Just as eternal and unbegotten as the Father and Holy Ghost. But it was the manhood of Jesus christ that was begotten of the Father..
i jn 4:
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Yes he was begotten before he was sent..This can only refer to his humanity..
Mary was not responsible for Jesus christ human soul, she was Just instrumental in providing his flesh and blood covering, His soul was a direct creation of God out of Gods own Eternal Being, just like adams soul was a directly from God, adam had no mother in that regards, and neither did the second adam, both souls were directly brought into being by God.
anyone not understanding this truth will be destroyed with antichrist, this truth is foundational for the true church of God..as Jesus said of peter:
matt 16:
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
May God bless the election of Grace.. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: A characteristic of antichrist |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | Jesus christ human soul was brought forth in eternity to be united with flesh and blood... |
Where do you find this in scripture?
| Quote: | | This man soul was united and became one with The Divine Son of God, the second person in the trinity, Hence He was setup from everlasting as the GodMan Mediator... |
Does this agree with what Matthew and Luke wrote concerning the begetting/conception/birth of Jesus? It sounds very different to me.
| Quote: | | His manhood however is emphasied in 1 jn 4 it was the ManGod who came in the flesh, the anointed messiah.. |
Why doesn't Paul, or any other NT writer ever use the "ManGod" label to describe Jesus?
| Quote: | | 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; |
Paul could have made it plain in this passage that Jesus was a "ManGod" if that is what he believed.
| Quote: | | Jesus christ was a man before he took on flesh and blood..Listen to the man Jesus christ before his incarnation.. |
I've never heard a Trinitarian propose that Jesus was a man before he "took on flesh and blood." Is this a common teaching in Trinitarianism? Is there a specific denomination (Trinitarian or otherwise) that teaches this?
| Quote: | | Again, this is in regards to the humanity of christ, that it was begotten from eternity out of the GodHead.. |
Begetting is the act of a father to bring a child into existence. What does "begotten from eternity" mean?
| Quote: | | But it was the manhood of Jesus christ that was begotten of the Father. |
According to Matthew and Luke, God brought His Son into existence circa 4 B.C. |
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beloved57
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | beloved57 wrote:
Jesus christ human soul was brought forth in eternity to be united with flesh and blood...
Where do you find this in scripture? |
These things must be revealed to one, the casual reader without the spirit of God will never understand..
| Quote: | Quote:
This man soul was united and became one with The Divine Son of God, the second person in the trinity, Hence He was setup from everlasting as the GodMan Mediator...
Does this agree with what Matthew and Luke wrote concerning the begetting/conception/birth of Jesus? It sounds very different to me. |
Jesus christ is clearly set forth as having been begotten before being sent..jn 3 16 and 1 jn 4 9
also, the nicene creed promotes this:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds,
| Quote: | Quote:
His manhood however is emphasied in 1 jn 4 it was the ManGod who came in the flesh, the anointed messiah..
Why doesn't Paul, or any other NT writer ever use the "ManGod" label to describe Jesus? |
Sure paul believed Jesus christ was God and a man.
| Quote: | Quote:
Jesus christ was a man before he took on flesh and blood..Listen to the man Jesus christ before his incarnation..
I've never heard a Trinitarian propose that Jesus was a man before he "took on flesh and blood." Is this a common teaching in Trinitarianism? Is there a specific denomination (Trinitarian or otherwise) that teaches this? |
scripture plainly says he is the man from heaven 1 cor 15:47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
| Quote: | | According to Matthew and Luke, God brought His Son into existence circa 4 B.C. |
Nah they dont say that, he was born of a virgin then, but scripture has him from everlasting micah 5:
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | These things must be revealed to one, the casual reader without the spirit of God will never understand.. |
That doesn't answer my question.
| Quote: | | Jesus christ is clearly set forth as having been begotten before being sent..jn 3 16 and 1 jn 4 9 |
I think you are misreading these passages. Even the Trinitarian view insists that God the Son, not his human soul, was eternally begotten.
| Quote: | also, the nicene creed promotes this:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, |
I think the Nicene Creed has more to do with the concept Origin developed on the eternal generation of the Son than what you have proposed.
| Quote: | | Sure paul believed Jesus christ was God and a man. |
But if he did, why didn't he use the term "ManGod"? I suggest that he believed the same thing that Matthew and Luke believed.
| Quote: | | scripture plainly says he is the man from heaven 1 cor 15:47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. |
Yes, but I question your interpretation of this scripture.
Again, you didn't answer my question about which denomination teaches the view that your are espousing.
| Quote: | | Nah they dont say that, |
They insist that Jesus was begotten and conceived in the womb of the virgin.
| Quote: | | he was born of a virgin then, but scripture has him from everlasting micah 5: |
I think you are misreading the Micah passage. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The ancient days could be referring to the origin of the new ruler in terms of the first Adam in the Garden of Eden...Whether or not the image of primitive man was in Micah's mind, the idea of a new David certainly was. The days of David are spoken of as..."the ancient days" in Amos 9:11, so such language would not be out of place in Micah. |
(Ralph L. Smith, Word Biblical Commentary, Micah - Malachi, Volume 32, p. 43-44)
As this verse is acknowledged by nearly all to be Messianic, it seems very reasonable to me that Micah is speaking about the origins of Messiah in his ancestor David; emphasizing that Messiah will be the son (descendant) of David. However, I have no objections to, and a personal preference for, the idea that the "goings forth" of Messiah has its origin in the plan and purpose of God and was realized when God literally brought Jesus into existence. Perhaps Micah had both of these thoughts in mind. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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The Hastings Bible Dictionary (Extra Volume, p. 696) translates the expression in Micah 5:2 as "remote antiquity" and goes on to say that "days of eternity" wrongly suggests the eternal preexistence of Messiah.
Again, I don't object to the idea of preexistence. The issue is that of literal preexistence vs. ideal preexistence. I reject the former and embrace the latter. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | More obvious and perfectly suitable to the context, ["origins" refers to] his descent from the ancient Davidic family - cp. Amos 9:11, where "the days of old" evidently refers to the reign of David. |
(Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges) |
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JB
Cobra
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Mattathias,
So what are saying in your posts? Is Jesus Christ God or He isn't God?
I am trying to get my head around all this dialog and the quoting of all these text books is clouding my simple brain.
JB |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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"And he shall stand and feed his flock in the strength of [YHWH], in the majesty of the name of [YHWH] his God. (Micah 5:4 NRSV)
Micah tells us that the person who was to be born in Bethlehem would call YHWH his God. YHWH does not call YHWH his God. Jesus does. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | So what are saying in your posts? Is Jesus Christ God or He isn't God? |
I am saying that Jesus is not YHWH. He is the uniquely begotten human son of YHWH.
| Quote: | | I am trying to get my head around all this dialog and the quoting of all these text books is clouding my simple brain. |
I'm using these quotes from Trinitarian scholars to bolster my argument. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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And a little Jewish commentary.
| Quote: | In the Soncino Books of the Bible, [Micah] Chapter 5 is summarized with this statement.
"A prophecy of the Messianic king and Israel's destiny among the nations."
In that commentary verses 1-5 are entitled "The Messianic King." The commentator, Rabbi Goldman's first phrase is, "This prophecy of the Messiah…" Rabbi Goldman also comments regarding the phrase "from ancient of days." He states:
"It is possible that the phrase gave rise to the later Jewish doctrine that the Messiah existed in the mind of God from time immemorial as part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the universe. In the Talmud, the name of the Messiah is included among the seven things created before the world was brought into being." |
http://hadavar.org/Micah_5_2.html |
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beloved57
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | beloved57 wrote:
These things must be revealed to one, the casual reader without the spirit of God will never understand..
That doesn't answer my question. |
It sure did, you cannot understand scripture without being born again and beign able to discrn truth..
1 cor 2:
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I | Quote: | | think you are misreading these passages. Even the Trinitarian view insists that God the Son, not his human soul, was eternally begotten |
Thats error, deity cannot be begotten, it was the man that was begotten and became one with deity..
I | Quote: | | think the Nicene Creed has more to do with the concept Origin developed on the eternal generation of the Son than what you have proposed |
It doesnt matter, its a widley accepted teaching, but its error..
| Quote: | | But if he did, why didn't he use the term "ManGod"? I suggest that he believed the same thing that Matthew and Luke believed. |
You have to ask paul that, i dont see that necessary though, He recognized him as a man and as God..
| Quote: | | Yes, but I question your interpretation of this scripture |
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no problem until you are born again you will question most things you dont understand..
| Quote: | | Again, you didn't answer my question about which denomination teaches the view that your are espousing. |
I dont know dont care all denominations are under anti christ..
I am a pastor teacher at my home..
| Quote: | | They insist that Jesus was begotten and conceived in the womb of the virgin. |
he was when he took on flesh and blood, but the man soul is not created by the women..its from God
adam was a man did he have a mother ?
| Quote: | | I think you are misreading the Micah passage. |
Your going to think that about most of what i post lol.. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | It sure did, you cannot understand scripture without being born again and beign able to discrn truth.. |
I asked you where to find it written in scripture. Your responses have not addressed the question.
| Quote: | | Thats error, deity cannot be begotten, it was the man that was begotten and became one with deity.. |
I absolutely agree that Diety cannot be begotten. Jesus was begotten. Matthew and Luke tell us precisely when and how.
Trinitarianism provides a different meaning to begotten. Your view doesn't accord with the common definition of the word or the Trinitarian application to Jesus. (I understand that you don't care.)
| Quote: | | It doesnt matter, its a widley accepted teaching, but its error.. |
That's very helpful. I had initially thought that you were an orthodox Trinitarian.
| Quote: | | ...He recognized him as a man and as God.. |
I think you're putting words in his mouth. I think the best you and I will be able to do on this point is to agree that he didn't put into words the thought you think he had.
| Quote: | | no problem until you are born again you will question most things you dont understand.. |
Comments like this are nothing more than dialogue killers. If I respond in kind the circle will be complete.
| Quote: | | I dont know dont care all denominations are under anti christ.. |
This, too, helps me better understand where you're coming from.
| Quote: | he was when he took on flesh and blood, but the man soul is not created by the women..its from God
adam was a man did he have a mother ? |
Adam was a unique creation. So was Jesus. |
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beloved57
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I asked you where to find it written in scripture. Your responses have not addressed the question |
I have told you that truth in scripture is not always verbatim quotes of the subject, but it takes spiritual dicernment, if you have not been born again you will not discern the truth of a matter..I have given you plenty of scriptures for what i believe and you say that you believe i have interpreted wrong, have you not ?
| Quote: | | I think you're putting words in his mouth. I think the best you and I will be able to do on this point is to agree that he didn't put into words the thought you think he had. |
You speak for yourself and not me, i see no need for the verbatim wordage you demand, and even if it was that way, you still will not believe but just say it means something else, because you have not the spirit of God..The Fact that paul recognizes Jesus as his lord is sufficent to know that he viewed him as both God and Man..1 tim 3:
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
| Quote: | Quote:
no problem until you are born again you will question most things you dont understand..
Comments like this are nothing more than dialogue killers. If I respond in kind the circle will be complete |
but its a true comment and one i must keep in mind when dealing with unbelievers such as your self, you cannot know or understand spiritual truth. The bible is not written for all people, but just the children of the kingdom, which if you are not born again, serves you no purpose to read, its just another piece of literay to you..
Jn 3:
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see[eidon=understand] the kingdom of God.
The person and work of Jesus christ are kingdom truthes all men cannot know..matt 13:
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
You cannot understand kingdom truth at all..it has to be given to you, sorry.. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Wowzer!  |
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