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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | SS,
I can say amen to everything you wrote in your last post except where you wrote Sunday worship is the Mark of the beast. There is no scripture that states that. Christ worshipped on other days than the Sabbath Himself. |
Is there any other Scripture which shows Jesus going to church, on any other day, than the 7th day sabbath ?
It must be remembered that God (Christ) only blessed, and made Holy, one day in the whole 7 day week cycle.
Only that one day did HE claim that one special day as HIS very own.
The question must be asked.... WHY did HE claim it as HIS, yet made it for mankind ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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SS,
Since you did not give scripture for your claim, I will take that as a NO, Sunday is Not the Mark, Name, or Number of the beast. Christ did not worship on the 7th day alone, Christ preached the Gospel everywhere He went, constantly, not on any specific day.
To say Sunday worship is the Mark is to condemn the true Church, for if you read Acts Chapter 2 ALL of it occured on Sunday for the day of Pentecost is the day AFTERthe 7th Sabbath. God enpowered His church on SUNDAY, they worshipped and preached on that Sunday, 3000 souls were converted on that Sunday, the TRUE CHURCH WAS STARTED AT THAT POINT ON SUNDAY. And to say Sunday worship is the mark of the beast then you would be claiming that Acts 2 is the start of Satans church. God knew what He was doing that Sunday, showing us we need to worship Him in Spirit and truth, not just worship on a certain day which is unscriptual -( Acts 2 all of it)
Acts 2:46-47 " And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved." |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 746
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Amen James!
We cannot take things here and there, out of context, which gives us truth out of balance. The bible must be considered in whole. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | SS,
Since you did not give scripture for your claim, I will take that as a NO, Sunday is Not the Mark, Name, or Number of the beast. |
I did not say that Sunday, was the Mark of the Beast ....as of yet.
I said that Sunday was the Mark of authority of the Roman Catholic church.....
DOCUMENTATION:
(based on Daniel 7:25....'think to change times and laws')
"Protestants accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship 'after' the Catholic Church made the change .....BUT the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that....in observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope", ('Our Sunday Visitor', February 5, 1950).
Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?"
"Sunday is a Catholic insitution,and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles....Fromthe beginning of scripture to the end (Genesis-Revelation) there is not one single passage that warrants the transfer of public worship from the 7th day of the week, to the 1st day of the week", ('Catholic Press', Sydney, Autralia, August, 1900).
"IF Protestants would follow the Bible, they shouldworship God on the Sabbath day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a Law of the Catholic Church" (Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920).
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, unfallable authority given her by her founder, Jesus Christ.
The Protestant claiming the Bible to be their only guide to faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.
In this matter, the Seventh-Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant", ("The Catholic Universe Bulletin', August 14, 1942).
"It was the Catholic church which by the authority of Jesus Christ, has transferred this rest (from the Bible Sabbath) to Sunday....Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protesant is in homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the Catholic Church", (Monsignor
Louis Segur, 'Plain Talk about the Protestant of Today', Page 213).
| Quote: |
Christ did not worship on the 7th day alone, Christ preached the Gospel everywhere He went, constantly, not on any specific day. |
BUT HE did attend religious meeting on the 7th day of the week, did HE not ?
Paul held religious services to gentile Christians, on the 7th day sabbath.......
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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SS,
The only point I am trying to make is we can not disreguard scriptures which clearly show they gathered other days also and not exclusively on the Sabbath. True Doctrine is built on the whole of scriptures and not just a select few. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | SS,
The only point I am trying to make is we can not disreguard scriptures which clearly show they gathered other days also and not exclusively on the Sabbath. True Doctrine is built on the whole of scriptures and not just a select few. |
I agree with that statement, YES !
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 746
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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SS, it seems to be all about the sabbath for you, like all roads lead to Rome. We are not under the law but under grace which does not make void the law, but fulfills it by acts of grace and not the letter of the law.
that is legalism which does not lead to heaven. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | SS, it seems to be all about the sabbath for you, like all roads lead to Rome. We are not under the law but under grace which does not make void the law, but fulfills it by acts of grace and not the letter of the law.
that is legalism which does not lead to heaven. |
The 4th commandment seems like the commandment the Christian world least wants to pay any attention to....
In other words, you break just one commandmnt, you break them all.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
WHY is it that the one commandment, that God made as a sign to show who is a true Christian, is the one commandment the Christian world wants to ignore the most ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2274
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Brother Surfer, you and I have been over all this stuff.
Paul and Jesus went to the synagogue on the Jewish sabbath day because that is the day when others were there to preach the message to. If they'd gone on other days, the synagogue would have been empty.
Your claim that we should all attend church on Saturday because scripture does not tell us that Jesus went to church on any other day (actually it tells us He went to synagogue, not to church) proves nothing. It is another Adventist argument based on a faulty premise.
You have stated before that it is because Jesus should be our example in all things that we should all attend church on Saturday. Why don't you attend a Jewish synagogue then? Why do you come on these boards condemning us for not following Jesus' example when you don't do it yourself?
With your belief in the importance of keeping all God's commandments, I would think you could learn much from a Jewish congregation. There are most likely some commandments that you are not keeping correctly or not keeping at all. And the synagogue could point these out to you.
If Sunday is a mark of authority of the catholic Church, then so is the doctrine of Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salvas, which you adventists also teach, and the doctrine of salvation by works and not by faith alone, which you Adventists also teach and is indeed a foundational teaching of Adventism, and the doctrine of the fallen angelic worship leader turned prime mover of evil which Adventists also teach, and several more. Adventism only differs from Catholicism in which day of the week they believe their earthly Sabbath day should be observed on. Otherwise, they are remarkably alike. Two peas in a pod.
You have denied it in the past, but I fully expect if Adventists were given political power, they'd launch an inquisition! At the least, they'd pass a law making it mandatory that all people attend church on Saturday and they'd punish those who met for worship any other day, especially Sunday. They might start with fines, but eventually I'd expect there'd be torture and executions. Religion hasn't changed. We can only hope that people have become more enlightened since those days. Currently we don't allow a religous government in the US because of a few lessons still fresh enough in our memories. But I've learned that people forget lessons quickly.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | The 4th commandment seems like the commandment the Christian world least wants to pay any attention to.... |
Why is the sabbath commandment the one which Adventists least want to see the spiritual, gospel fulfillment of?
For that matter, I don't think Adventists want to know that the commandment against killing, for those not interested in murdering anyone anyway, was about loving and receiving other believers as brothers.
And I know Adventists do not want to know that the commandment against adultery held a spiritual fulfillment showing how because we are dead to the law, we have been married to another, namely Jesus Christ.
Why are Adventist not interested in these great gospel truths, and instead obsessed with the beggarly, earthly applications of these laws?
I know the answer. It is in God's Word.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 746
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus: | Quote: | | Why are Adventist not interested in these great gospel truths, and instead obsessed with the beggarly, earthly applications of these laws? |
Wow! |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 746
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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SS: | Quote: | | WHY is it that the one commandment, that God made as a sign to show who is a true Christian, is the one commandment the Christian world wants to ignore the most ? |
Don't you mean who is a true Jew? being that Christ had not been made manifest in human form at this time. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | Why are Adventist not interested in these great gospel truths, and instead obsessed with the beggarly, earthly applications of these laws?
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If there was no law of God, would there be a Gospel message to teach anyone ?
If you answer is yes, then that is why I'm here.
The mission of Jesus Christ, while here on earth was in part to......
Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.
From the very beginning of the great controversy in heaven it has been Satan's purpose to overthrow the law of God.
It was to accomplish this that he entered upon his rebellion against the Creator, and though he was cast out of heaven he has continued the same warfare upon the earth.
To deceive men, and thus lead them to transgress God's law, is the object which he has steadfastly pursued.........
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Whether this be accomplished by casting aside the law altogether, or by rejecting one of its precepts, the result will be ultimately the same. He that offends "in one point," manifests contempt for the whole law; his influence and example are on the side of transgression; he becomes "guilty of all." James 2:10.
In seeking to cast contempt upon the divine statutes, Satan has perverted the doctrines of the Bible, and errors have thus become incorporated into the faith of thousands who profess to believe the Scriptures.
The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God.
Upon this battle we are now entering--a battle between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah, between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition.
Thousands who pride themselves upon their wisdom and independence regard it as an evidence of weakness to place implicit confidence in the Bible; they think it a proof of superior talent and learning to cavil at the Scriptures and to spiritualize and explain away their most important truths.
Many ministers are teaching their people, and many professors and teachers are instructing their students, that the law of God has been changed or abrogated; and those who regard its requirements as still valid, to be literally obeyed, are thought to be deserving only of ridicule or contempt.
In rejecting the truth, men reject its Author.
In trampling upon the law of God, they deny the authority of the Law-giver.
It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone.
No error accepted by the Christian world strikes more boldly against the authority of Heaven, none is more directly opposed to the dictates of reason, none is more pernicious in its results, than the modern doctrine, so rapidly gaining ground, that God's law is no longer binding upon men.
Every nation has its laws, which command respect and obedience; no government could exist without them; and can it be conceived that the Creator of the heavens and the earth has no law to govern the beings He has made?
Suppose that prominent ministers were publicly to teach that the statutes which govern their land and protect the rights of its citizens were not obligatory--that they restricted the liberties of the people, and therefore ought not to be obeyed; how long would such men be tolerated in the pulpit?
But is it a graver offense to disregard the laws of states and nations than to trample upon those divine precepts which are the foundation of all government?
It would be far more consistent for nations to abolish their statutes, and permit the people to do as they please, than for the Ruler of the universe to annul His law, and leave the world without a standard to condemn the guilty or justify the obedient.
Would we know the result of making void the law of God?
(From the book, The Great Controversy between Christ and satan, by E. White)
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2274
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | If there was no law of God, would there be a Gospel message to teach anyone ?
If you answer is yes, then that is why I'm here. |
Don't get so pleased with yourself just yet. 
No one is denying that there would be no gospel message if the law had not been given.
Galatians 3:22
| Quote: | | But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. |
What scripture concluded all under sin? The law.
Rom 3:
| Quote: | 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; |
Why have all sinned? Because the law made all the world guilty before God, verse 19
| Quote: | | 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: |
Freely? Would that mean without the law?
| Quote: | 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. |
We could not have been declared righteous without the law unless the law had first declared us guilty.
And as verse 21 says, this righteousness that we have that is without the law was prophesied in the law! The law itself foretells that we would be justified freely by faith in Jesus alone.
For that reason, when I partake of this righteousness which is by faith in Jesus and without the law, I establish the law.
Paul is not at all being hard to understand here. To a first century Jew this might have been very hard to grasp, but probably for that reason, Paul explains it in very simple and direct terms.
| Ellen G White wrote: | From the very beginning of the great controversy in heaven it has been Satan's purpose to overthrow the law of God.
It was to accomplish this that he entered upon his rebellion against the Creator, and though he was cast out of heaven he has continued the same warfare upon the earth. |
Here's that silly teaching of a fallen angelic worship leader again, taken directly from the Catholics.
From your quoted passage, it is very clear that Ellen G White was full of her own ideas, and had little understanding of God's plan and of His Word. She was utterly thinking according to the flesh when she wrote:
| Ellen G White wrote: | | Every nation has its laws, which command respect and obedience; no government could exist without them; and can it be conceived that the Creator of the heavens and the earth has no law to govern the beings He has made? |
To compare the kingdom of heaven to man's kingdoms and their earthly laws clearly demonstrates a carnal mind.
| Ellen G White wrote: | | Would we know the result of making void the law of God? |
Here she full well twists Paul's words, and I suspect, the words of these ministers who she was speaking against, who she claimed taught anarchy because they taught that the law of the old covenant had passed. It is Paul himself who said that by receiving this righteousness which is without the law, we establish the law, because this righteousness was testified in the law.
Ellen White was clearly full of her own ideas and unwilling to hear the truth of God in His Word. It is very interesting to me that she does not mention what would happen if all men acted out of the love of God, which the Bible says is shed abroad in our hearts. She shows us only two possibilities: living under laws and living in anarchy. A bit of not very skillful logical sleight of hand there. She tries to make us see only what she wants us to see. This makes me believe she was the type who would rather have seen a world where all people were under iron fisted control, forced to live by laws imposed on them, rather than to see all men free, and acting in each other's behalf out of the love of God.
In rejecting the truth, she rejects its Author.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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without Law, there is no freedom.
That is why, the Gospel message includes God's Laws.
Salvation, is not possible without God's Laws.
Sin, is defined as breaking any one of God's Laws.
Maybe that is why God calls HIS Laws, the Law of Liberty (James 2:10-12).
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5303
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| SS wrote: | | Sin, is defined as breaking any one of God's Laws. |
Does that you obey all 600+ laws?
Nobby |
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