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Nobby
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Joined: 16 Sep 2002
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 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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P123, There's no verse which says that life doesn't start at conception! 
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | P123, There's no verse which says that life doesn't start at conception! |
Actually, there sort of is: Adam's soul enters his body when he takes his first breath. Since he is the quintessential man, it stands to reason that the same holds true for all humans.
In addition, abortions were practiced during and before Jesus' time, and he would have been well aware of them. If he thought they were bad, then he would have said something about it, but clearly he didn't. Therefore abortions are not a Biblical sin.
But even if you don't believe this, there is no way that the soul enters the body at conception, because that doesn't explain what happens with identical twins.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
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Nobby
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hi P123, Not nesessarly Adam wasn't born as a baby from the womb of a mother. Adam was created from a handfull of soil that God picked up from earth! Adam wasn't created a baby he was a full grown man. He wasn't alive until God breathed into him & he became a living soul! Eve was also created frome a rib bone from Adam's body! I would say the they were quite a bit different! I don't know why I'm telling you this you don't believe any of it anyway!
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Last edited by Nobby on Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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When does life begin?
When the kids leave the house, and the dog dies. 
Seriously thou, I never understood why this is a question. Anything that is capable of being nurished, grows, and changes is obviously alive. In order to get rid of it - even at it's earliest stages- you have to kill it. There is no debate here, there is no other way.
In order to kill something, it has to be alive first, is that not true?
So now we move onto the next question which is not a question of life, but quality of life. Or what is better known as the excuse. Goes something like this.........
Well........at 8 weeks, it's not REALLY a baby yet. It has no consciousness, no harm done.
What a crock of crappola that is.
At the moment of conception, all the information about who this person will be, is already there. Only God can give life, only God has the right to take it away.
Make any excuse you want, it goes back to the basics.
In order to get rid of an embryo, the only way to do that is kill it. God says clearly, Do not kill. There are no addendums, no conditions, no exceptions.
So what was the question? |
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Nobby
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Very good 11, no question here!
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Hi P123, Not nesessarly Adam wasn't born as a baby from the womb of a mother. Adam was created from a handfull of soil that God picked up from earth! Adam wasn't created a baby he was a full grown man. He wasn't alive until God breathed into him & he became a living soul! Eve was also created frome a rib bone from Adam's body! I would say the they were quite a bit different! I don't know why I'm telling you this you don't believe any of it anyway! |
Maybe so, but ensoulment happening with the first breath is the best hypothesis we've got if we've only got scripture to go by. That's the closest the Bible ever gets to talking about ensoulment.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: |
What a crock of crappola that is.
At the moment of conception, all the information about who this person will be, is already there.
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You can say the same thing about the sperm and the egg before they have joined, but we don't label men who masturbate or women who menstruate as murderers...
| eleven wrote: |
Make any excuse you want, it goes back to the basics.
In order to get rid of an embryo, the only way to do that is kill it. God says clearly, Do not kill. There are no addendums, no conditions, no exceptions.
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This is a totally false statement, and the situation isn't *nearly* as simple as you portray it to be.
First of all, the Bible has no problems with killing. When you eat lettuce, you kill it. The Bible doesn't say *anything* against killing vegetables.
In fact, the Bible doesn't even say anything against killing animals. If it did, then all Christians would have to be vegetarians.
The only prohibition whatsoever in the Bible against killing is that of murdering other beings which have souls. Vegetables and animals don't have souls, so it is ok to kill them. Human fetuses also don't have souls, so it is ok to kill them as well.
In fact, there are plenty of Christians on this message board who take it even one step further, and say that the Bible allows one to kill other human beings, as long as it is in self defense.
Besides, what about the fact that Jesus didn't say anything against abortion in the Bible, even though abortions were common well before he even lived? The fact that he kept quiet on the subject suggests to me that he thought that the practice was acceptable.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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P said | Quote: |
| Quote: | eleven wrote:
What a crock of crappola that is.
At the moment of conception, all the information about who this person will be, is already there. |
You can say the same thing about the sperm and the egg before they have joined, but we don't label men who masturbate or women who menstruate as murderers... |
You totally missed elevens point. If you leave a fetus alone it becomes a baby. If you leave a sperm or an egg alone nothing happens. Do you see the diff?
| Quote: | | The only prohibition whatsoever in the Bible against killing is that of murdering other beings which have souls. Vegetables and animals don't have souls, so it is ok to kill them. Human fetuses also don't have souls, so it is ok to kill them as well. |
For starters, the fact that animals and plants have souls could be easily debated; Ecclesiastes 3:21 states that an animal has a soul.
Ok could you tell me when does a human receive a soul or for that matter when does it leave? Is there some weight gain or loss? You state this as fact can you tell me where you got your information from? I am almost certain that you don't know I don't know either. So if you truly believe as you stated above that it is wrong to murder something that has a soul and can not tell me for certain when a human receives its soul then you must agree with me that killing a fetus is murder.
| Quote: | | Besides, what about the fact that Jesus didn't say anything against abortion in the Bible, even though abortions were common well before he even lived? The fact that he kept quiet on the subject suggests to me that he thought that the practice was acceptable. |
 Lets see if I can use your very loose sense of logic to biblically prove a soul from conception.
The Bible may have been silent on the issue of abortion, but it had plenty to say on the blessings of children. Also since you are opening up the Bible for proof lets see what it says, about the issue. We can see in Luke chapter one that Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist sometime around 6 months prior to that of Mary’s conception by the Holy Spirit and that when Mary went to visit her Elizabeth's baby jumped for joy recognizing Christ while both were still in the wombs. Maybe some of the scholars can help on exact ages of the Fetuses but Jesus could not have been more than 3 months old at this meeting, and I do believe that His soul had to have been present for John, who also had to have had a soul, to recognize Him. So we can agree that a soul is present from conception to 3 months, but still don't know exactly when, so we have narrowed it some.
Now let’s see what else? How about sin does something have to have a soul to be able to sin? David states that he was with sin from conception in the psalms so now we can say that at conception we have a soul.
As far as abortions occurring prior to the time of Christ I would like some sources on this, all that I could find talking about it said that it might have been a practice but we can not know because there is no difference between the words "abortion, miscarriage, and contraceptive" in the ancient Hebrew, Greek, or Egyptian languages. So if you could please source that for me.
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If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: |
You totally missed elevens point. If you leave a fetus alone it becomes a baby. If you leave a sperm or an egg alone nothing happens. Do you see the diff?
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This is not true. If a fetus is left all alone, it dies. It requires resources from the mother's body via the placenta. A lot of work still needs to be done, just like with a sperm and egg in which extra work has to be done to unite them.
But in any case, what does "leaving aloneness" have to do with anything? Just because something will eventually become a human being with a soul does not mean that it currently is a human being with a soul.
| ragman13 wrote: |
For starters, the fact that animals and plants have souls could be easily debated; Ecclesiastes 3:21 states that an animal has a soul.
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Thank you for this verse; I was not aware of it. If animals have souls, then why aren't all Christians vegetarian?
| ragman13 wrote: |
Ok could you tell me when does a human receive a soul or for that matter when does it leave?
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Well, it definitely can't be at conception. This is proved by the case of identical twins. With identical twins, identical cells separate from the embryo shortly after conception and individually embed themselves in the uterine wall. Each one then grows individually.
If the soul enters the body at conception, then this creates a serious problem for one of the twins, since he was never conceived via a sperm and egg. So where does the second twin's soul come from? Does the second twin get no soul? Does it get an identical copy of the first soul? Does the first soul split in two, and each gets half of a soul?
| ragman13 wrote: |
So if you truly believe as you stated above that it is wrong to murder something that has a soul and can not tell me for certain when a human receives its soul then you must agree with me that killing a fetus is murder.
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This does not follow. If we don't know for certain when a human receives its soul then we don't know if killing a fetus is murder.
| ragman13 wrote: |
The Bible may have been silent on the issue of abortion, but it had plenty to say on the blessings of children.
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Maybe so, but children and fetuses are very different things!
| ragman13 wrote: |
Also since you are opening up the Bible for proof lets see what it says, about the issue. We can see in Luke chapter one that Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist sometime around 6 months prior to that of Mary’s conception by the Holy Spirit and that when Mary went to visit her Elizabeth's baby jumped for joy recognizing Christ while both were still in the wombs. Maybe some of the scholars can help on exact ages of the Fetuses but Jesus could not have been more than 3 months old at this meeting, and I do believe that His soul had to have been present for John, who also had to have had a soul, to recognize Him. So we can agree that a soul is present from conception to 3 months, but still don't know exactly when, so we have narrowed it some.
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This is another interesting verse which I was not aware of, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. But in any case, this doesn't solve the problem. It shows that for ordinary humans the soul enters the body no later than nine months, and that for man-Gods the soul enters the body no later than three months, so this is totally inconclusive.
In any case, the vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and we know for a scientific fact that human fetuses can't feel pain or think until much, much later.
| ragman13 wrote: |
Now let’s see what else? How about sin does something have to have a soul to be able to sin? David states that he was with sin from conception in the psalms so now we can say that at conception we have a soul.
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This sounds more like a hyperbole to me. David was using a literary device for emphasis. He was just saying that all humans are sinners. Otherwise you get the twins problem.
| ragman13 wrote: |
As far as abortions occurring prior to the time of Christ I would like some sources on this, all that I could find talking about it said that it might have been a practice but we can not know because there is no difference between the words "abortion, miscarriage, and contraceptive" in the ancient Hebrew, Greek, or Egyptian languages. So if you could please source that for me. |
Sure:
Riddle, John M. (1997). Eve's Herbs: A History of Contraception and Abortion in the West. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 44-46.
Here is what Wikipedia's article on abortion says:
| Quote: | | Throughout recorded history, abortion has been induced by various traditional medicine methods, including botanical abortifacients, the use of sharpened tools, and abdominal pressure. |
Recorded history goes back about 6000 years or so, so clearly abortion doesn't require any high tech. There were herbs in ancient times such as silphium which were used as abortifacients.
So these things were around when Jesus walked the Earth (plus, he's God, so he knows everything anyways). If abortion is such a serious and heinous crime, how come Jesus never says a word about it? How come God doesn't say anything against it in the Old Testament either?
Since they're perfect, it can't be that it just slipped their minds, so we can only conclude that they thought abortions were acceptable.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ChristianWoman1
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 290
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | When does life begin?
When the kids leave the house, and the dog dies.
Seriously thou, I never understood why this is a question. Anything that is capable of being nurished, grows, and changes is obviously alive. In order to get rid of it - even at it's earliest stages- you have to kill it. There is no debate here, there is no other way.
In order to kill something, it has to be alive first, is that not true?
So now we move onto the next question which is not a question of life, but quality of life. Or what is better known as the excuse. Goes something like this.........
Well........at 8 weeks, it's not REALLY a baby yet. It has no consciousness, no harm done.
What a crock of crappola that is.
At the moment of conception, all the information about who this person will be, is already there. Only God can give life, only God has the right to take it away.
Make any excuse you want, it goes back to the basics.
In order to get rid of an embryo, the only way to do that is kill it. God says clearly, Do not kill. There are no addendums, no conditions, no exceptions.
So what was the question? |
well said!
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I recently became aware of another scientific problem with the whole, "the soul enters the body at conception" argument:
It is possible for two fertilized eggs (which otherwise would have become two non-identical twins) to join into a single organism in the womb. You end up getting a person who has two sets of DNA. This is called a chimera, and there have been about 40 documented human cases (and many animal cases).
This causes a big problem for people who believe that the soul enters the body at conception, because it would mean that these people have two souls, even though it's clear that they have at most one mind and/or consciousness.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Welcome back P123 I missed seeing you around here.
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Welcome back P123 I missed seeing you around here. |
Thanks! I was kind of busy.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | I recently became aware of another scientific problem with the whole, "the soul enters the body at conception" argument:
It is possible for two fertilized eggs (which otherwise would have become two non-identical twins) to join into a single organism in the womb. You end up getting a person who has two sets of DNA. This is called a chimera, and there have been about 40 documented human cases (and many animal cases).
This causes a big problem for people who believe that the soul enters the body at conception, because it would mean that these people have two souls, even though it's clear that they have at most one mind and/or consciousness. |
Let's see, if a chimera is formed then you have a blend of the two but you don't have two sets of everything like two heads, two pairs of eyes, two hearts, etc. You have one being with the same organ count and structure as the normal person.
One mind, one body, therefore one soul. So either one soul was lost or the souls were blended into one soul just as the zygotes were! 
Nice to see you back. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: |
One mind, one body, therefore one soul. So either one soul was lost or the souls were blended into one soul just as the zygotes were!
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Could you please provide the chapter and verse of the Bible which describes 'soul losing' and 'soul blending'?
(There is a chapter and verse which describes the soul entering the body at the first breath.)
| Ryck wrote: |
Nice to see you back. |
Thanks!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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