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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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 Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:28 am Post subject: |
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You said: | Quote: | | The problem with your [Vibrate's] approach is that others claim that the truth operates in them in such a way that they do not err in matters of doctrine, but their versions of what is true doctrine are discordant. |
Maybe you didn't choose that word "problem" carefully enough. For whom is this a problem? Clearly God speaks the truth and his opponents lie, claiming to speak the truth. So God claims, as the liars do, to be speaking the truth. Is this a problem? I guess it is, but not for God. It is a problem for the liars. So if you are implying that there is a problem for me, you are wrong. The ones with the problem are the liars and warmongers who teach doctrine-speak.
Basically your issue with what I am saying is that it sounds to you like a circle of logic - tautology - I am right because I am right.
This issue of feeling things should be spelled out, or written down is a problem that all men have to deal with, because due to sin we feel that things need to be spelled out in words to us in order for us to acknowledge them as truth. And this is the fundamental flaw of the doctrine approach, and the crux of the victory of God's word, and God's people over sin and death.
You are dealing with a fundamental misunderstanding about how words work, and what they are, originally, in God's mind. This is because you grew up in a false system, where words are just empty shells - commodities to be thrown around without thought. But in God's mind words are the power of creation, and truth. Whereas in Babylon words must be defined, and statements must not be tautological, the rules are different in God's mind. This is why a Babylonian, or "doctrine thinker" cannot understand God's word, spoken by the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or anyone.
It's natural that my words will sound tautological to someone who tries to listen to my words according to "doctrine thinking". [Please note I am not accusing you of anything by this statement, other than a failure to grasp the full meaning of what I have been saying].
Everything I say will sound tautological because as far as the doctrine perspective it is tautological. Here is my whole doctrine - God is God, God is truth, God is love, love is truth, truth is love, nature is truth, and so on. It all goes round and round.
Here are a few scriptures to think about though, since you clearly honor the bible, as you should:
1) When God sent Moses to the people, Moses realized that human tradition required a name, so he asked God. God's answer was the purest form of tautology. You know what He replied.
2) When God wanted to make an oath, He could not swear on anything higher than Himself, as is the human tradition when making oaths. So He swore an oath on His own name.
3) Man always thinks he needs to do something - go left or right, up or down, sit or stand. He is restless because he feels ill at ease. But God says to him, "Be still, and know that I am the Lord." Man feels like he has to do something in order to be justified, but God says "You are made right in my sight by grace alone."
I hope that your spirit can contemplate these words and this teaching, and cast aside any reverence for the tradition of "doctrine speak". There is no explanation, or proof with words, and it cannot be written down for you. There is only to be still, and KNOW. |
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Paul2
Ferret
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Virbate AKA Vibrate,
| You wrote: | | Maybe you didn't choose that word "problem" carefully enough... |
I edited my post just prior to your reply and changed the sentence you had already quoted, but my meaning is basically the same. I wasn't aware you had already replied.
Paul |
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Paul2
Ferret
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Virbate a.k.a. Vibrate
| I wrote: | | The problem with your approach is that others claim that the truth operates in them in such a way that they do not err in matters of doctrine, but their versions of what is true doctrine are discordant. |
| You wrote: | | Maybe you didn't choose that word "problem" carefully enough. For whom is this a problem? |
It's a problem in that your approach is problematic. No one can know which claimant to the truth is telling the truth. Example: Several people each of whom teach conflicting doctrines could say something similar to this:
"Believe what I say, believe that I am speaking true doctrine and all others who claim to be speaking by the same principles which I espouse and disagree with me, are liars. If challenged, I'm not prepared to back up what I teach with Scripture, because I'm not going to play 'the doctrine speak game'."
A Bible based discussion of whether "the Trinity" is fact or falsehood is not happening between us, so that's all I have to say for now.
Paul
Last edited by Paul2 on Fri May 23, 2008 3:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Okay. I understand. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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What did you understand me to be saying here? I get the feeling that you sped read right over it. | Quote: | Basically your issue with what I am saying is that it sounds to you like a circle of logic - tautology - I am right because I am right.
This issue of feeling things should be spelled out, or written down is a problem that all men have to deal with, because due to sin we feel that things need to be spelled out in words to us in order for us to acknowledge them as truth. And this is the fundamental flaw of the doctrine approach, and the crux of the victory of God's word, and God's people over sin and death.
You are dealing with a fundamental misunderstanding about how words work, and what they are, originally, in God's mind. This is because you grew up in a false system, where words are just empty shells - commodities to be thrown around without thought. But in God's mind words are the power of creation, and truth. Whereas in Babylon words must be defined, and statements must not be tautological, the rules are different in God's mind. This is why a Babylonian, or "doctrine thinker" cannot understand God's word, spoken by the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or anyone.
It's natural that my words will sound tautological to someone who tries to listen to my words according to "doctrine thinking". |
As far as the above being in the Bible, I have shown God's refusal to prove His words according to a "different" context, and I have shown that such a proof would be impossible, and that to demand such a proof is actually heretical and contrary to what the Bible teaches.
I showed when God gave His name only as JHVH, which is tautological in the eyes of Babylon, and therefore not valid. I have shown that Jesus complained of the evil generation wanting a sign. There is also His reprimand of Thomas for needing proof, even though he was a believer. Most of all, the whole point of the Gospel is that Faith inspires works, and not the other way around. There is a clear analogy between the faith/works relationship and the truth/explanation relationship.
Have you understood the point made in that last paragraph? It's okay if you ask questions, or need confirmation to understand what I'm saying. Just let me know. |
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