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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1534
Location: BC
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Evolution does not talk about origins (of life or the universe). |
Our biology textbooks do... would you like a citation or two? |
Evolution is a subset of biology; not everything biology must be evolution. Thank you for demonstrating how you like to lump everything together.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | See, the problem is, you're seeing that evolution opposes what you think the bible is saying, and this perception of the bible also addresses origins (both of life and the universe), so you're trying to tie together all scientific theories addressing what your perception of the bible addresses and then you're warring against them all, under your tidy new categorization of everything as 'evolution.' |
OK... when God writes in Exodus 20:11 "For in six days God created the heavens and the earth", pointing us to direct and literal interpretation of Gen 1... my perception of the Bible, or exegesis of said passages is incorrect? |
What your interpretation actually is is something that lumps origins of the universe, life, and life forms as we see them today. That's all that matters to my point.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Ana... I can't count how many times I have asked for a cogent, consistent exegesis that supports another point of view... backed up by passages within scripture. Are you going to continually state that my interpretation is wrong without ever citing where in scripture the reader is to interpret it any other way? If so... please... by all means... chapter and verse please. |
This is irrelevant and it's not my battle - that's for people who believe in both to defend. Your religious beliefs have an all-encompassing answer to all the things I've mentioned. Science has different answers to all of those things, but you're lumping them all together in some war between God and not God. I'm simply pointing that out. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Evolution does not talk about origins (of life or the universe). |
Our biology textbooks do... would you like a citation or two? |
Evolution is a subset of biology; not everything biology must be evolution. Thank you for demonstrating how you like to lump everything together. |
Kettle---this is black... 
The word evolution is used repeatedly in biology textbooks when they are discussing the origins of life... the origins of the universe... et. al. Your problem should not be some YEC fundy blaspheming Darwinian Evolution... it should be a disgust you have with the publishers of textbooks who try to push this garbage on Middle Schoolers.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | See, the problem is, you're seeing that evolution opposes what you think the bible is saying, and this perception of the bible also addresses origins (both of life and the universe), so you're trying to tie together all scientific theories addressing what your perception of the bible addresses and then you're warring against them all, under your tidy new categorization of everything as 'evolution.' |
OK... when God writes in Exodus 20:11 "For in six days God created the heavens and the earth", pointing us to direct and literal interpretation of Gen 1... my perception of the Bible, or exegesis of said passages is incorrect? |
What your interpretation actually is is something that lumps origins of the universe, life, and life forms as we see them today. That's all that matters to my point. |
No Ana... it is not my interpretation as you suggest. It is a plain, clear, consistent reading of the Bible. You know this. If it were different you'd be putting Trinity in his place with chapter and verse... but you're not... cause you know that your assertion that I am somehow following some convoluted interpretation of Gen 1 is completely false. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1534
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Evolution does not talk about origins (of life or the universe). |
Our biology textbooks do... would you like a citation or two? |
Evolution is a subset of biology; not everything biology must be evolution. Thank you for demonstrating how you like to lump everything together. |
Kettle---this is black... |
Explain how you think I lump everything together.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
The word evolution is used repeatedly in biology textbooks when they are discussing the origins of life... the origins of the universe... et. al. Your problem should not be some YEC fundy blaspheming Darwinian Evolution... it should be a disgust you have with the publishers of textbooks who try to push this garbage on Middle Schoolers. |
Yeah sure - if you can prove it. Of course, I already have a healthy amount of disgust with your education system.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
No Ana... it is not my interpretation as you suggest. It is a plain, clear, consistent reading of the Bible. You know this. If it were different you'd be putting Trinity in his place with chapter and verse... but you're not... cause you know that your assertion that I am somehow following some convoluted interpretation of Gen 1 is completely false. |
Dude, the point is not about your specific beliefs other than the fact that it posits one answer for a multitude of different things. This lumping doesn't translate over into the scientific world the way you seem to think it does. For all I care, your specific belief could be that a bowl of cheese created everything last Thursday - that's not the point. You're constantly making it about your world view vs evolution, and then lumping anything that isn't consistent with your world view as 'evolution'. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Evolution does not talk about origins (of life or the universe). |
Our biology textbooks do... would you like a citation or two? |
Evolution is a subset of biology; not everything biology must be evolution. Thank you for demonstrating how you like to lump everything together. |
Kettle---this is black... |
Explain how you think I lump everything together. |
Ana... follow the thread here. You said that I was lumping everything together... abiogenesis and evolution... my retort was that it was biology textbooks doing it.... not me. Then you ignored what I wrote... got exercised about it getting lumped together... and I only pointed out the textbooks are the ones lumping it together... I hope this is clear now that evolution is taught as it encompasses even abiogensis... Right/Wrong... that is just the way it is. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1534
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Ana... follow the thread here. You said that I was lumping everything together... abiogenesis and evolution... my retort was that it was biology textbooks doing it.... not me. Then you ignored what I wrote... got exercised about it getting lumped together... and I only pointed out the textbooks are the ones lumping it together... I hope this is clear now that evolution is taught as it encompasses even abiogensis... Right/Wrong... that is just the way it is. |
Your words:
| Quote: | | Is this not... in essence, what Darwinian Evolution teaches? It removes any supernatural causation for life... ergo... abiogenesis... |
Did you catch that? You said you think Darwinian Evolution posits abiogenesis - and nary a word here about textbooks - you pointed squarely at evolution. If you no longer agree with this statement, it's not hard to say so. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Trinity wrote: |
Ana... follow the thread here. You said that I was lumping everything together... abiogenesis and evolution... my retort was that it was biology textbooks doing it.... not me. Then you ignored what I wrote... got exercised about it getting lumped together... and I only pointed out the textbooks are the ones lumping it together... I hope this is clear now that evolution is taught as it encompasses even abiogensis... Right/Wrong... that is just the way it is.
Your words:
| Quote: | | Is this not... in essence, what Darwinian Evolution teaches? It removes any supernatural causation for life... ergo... abiogenesis... |
Did you catch that? You said you think Darwinian Evolution posits abiogenesis - and nary a word here about textbooks - you pointed squarely at evolution. If you no longer agree with this statement, it's not hard to say so. |
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I said teaches Ana. Perhaps I could have been a little more definitive in what I meant... but the point is what do you teach from?
A) Scientific Journals
B) The internet
C) A textbook
Our textbooks make no delineation. They talk about the evolution of stars and planets, chemicals, and yes... the formation of life and how it 'became' through evolutionary processes. You know, even Lil Dicky Dawkins admits as much in Expelled when he talks about how life must have evolved from something not living.
Also, please do me the favor of reprimanding FFT for suggesting as much over in the “Am I the only YEC” thread. Evidently he is just as confused as the textbook publishers.
Thanks - Trinity |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1534
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
I said teaches Ana. Perhaps I could have been a little more definitive in what I meant... but the point is what do you teach from?
A) Scientific Journals
B) The internet
C) A textbook |
How does a theory teach anything? You specifically said 'Darwinian Evolution.' If you meant 'people who teach evolution' then you should have said so, but this is clearly not what you meant when you said it - you were, in essence, agreeing with Prys's wayward perception of evolution. I would have commented on his perception directly, but others had already done so, quite sufficiently. However, you picked up his snuffed out torch and ran with it, so I thought I'd point out to you that the fire had already gone out.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Our textbooks make no delineation. They talk about the evolution of stars and planets, chemicals, and yes... the formation of life and how it 'became' through evolutionary processes. You know, even Lil Dicky Dawkins admits as much in Expelled when he talks about how life must have evolved from something not living. |
Would you please stop with the ad hominems against Dawkins? They're not doing anything except demonstrating both your immaturity and your inability to address his points.
Dawkins is not the theory of evolution. For what it's worth, I agree with Dawkins. However, evolution doesn't address this. Also, plenty of things evolve - ideas evolve, traditions evolve, marketing tactics evolve - plenty of things evolve. Also, they're not talking about Darwinian evolution when they're talking about stars and planets - that's not how they're using the word at all.
Plus you said something once about showing me where a textbook actually says evolution includes the formation of the first life form.
I'm having trouble visualizing a scenario of the 'survival of the fittest rock'...
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Also, please do me the favor of reprimanding FFT for suggesting as much over in the “Am I the only YEC” thread. Evidently he is just as confused as the textbook publishers.
Thanks - Trinity |
After perusing that thread again, I have no idea what you're talking about. I see the post I think you mean, but you're misinterpreting what he said. He's saying that advancements in technology and science that have come about because of working on the theory of evolution have become part of biology and other disciplines - he did not say everything fits under the umbrella of 'evolution' - there's a huge difference there (as in, one's an apple and the other's a gazelle). |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
I said teaches Ana. Perhaps I could have been a little more definitive in what I meant... but the point is what do you teach from?
A) Scientific Journals
B) The internet
C) A textbook |
How does a theory teach anything? You specifically said 'Darwinian Evolution.' If you meant 'people who teach evolution' then you should have said so, but this is clearly not what you meant when you said it - you were, in essence, agreeing with Prys's wayward perception of evolution. |
What... do we now know what I meant to write... or what I meant to write now Ana? Give it up. I said that I could have been clearer (and at the risk of you going back and citing that those weren't my exact words... )-k-?
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
Our textbooks make no delineation. They talk about the evolution of stars and planets, chemicals, and yes... the formation of life and how it 'became' through evolutionary processes. You know, even Lil Dicky Dawkins admits as much in Expelled when he talks about how life must have evolved from something not living. |
Would you please stop with the ad hominems against Dawkins? |
Sure.. just as soon as others stop with the ad hominems against creationists. Odd how I don't see your same level of... um...... yes... you continued here with:
| Quote: | | They're not doing anything except demonstrating both your immaturity and your inability to address his points. |
your contemporary's levels of maturity and inabilities to address the points. Are you really being serious with this?  Richard Dawkins is prolly the biggest God hating man on the planet today. He is the hero of the Atheists... mischaracterizes the character of the God I worship and love... and you want me to be civil with his name? Sorry... I have nothing but contempt for homey and if my characterizations of him reflect that... good.
Also... if you ever have the opportunity to speak with him.. tell him to get those chompers cleaned... its disgusting already.
| Quote: | | Dawkins is not the theory of evolution. |
I don't think I ever said he was... he is however, one of its most vocal proponents. He also uses it to somehow try to castigate Christianity... that in of itself causes me to question his 'science' and examine closely his motive. Kinda like what happened to dear ole von Sternberg...
| Quote: | | For what it's worth, I agree with Dawkins. However, evolution doesn't address this. Also, plenty of things evolve - ideas evolve, traditions evolve, marketing tactics evolve - plenty of things evolve. |
Great... then there shouldn't be a problem with folks lumping it together then.. should there.
| Quote: | Plus you said something once about showing me where a textbook actually says evolution includes the formation of the first life form.
I'm having trouble visualizing a scenario of the 'survival of the fittest rock'... |
When describing the emergence of the first life form it describe how it evolved from a collection of chemicals into the first living cell. That... is teaching the evolution of the formation of life...
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
Also, please do me the favor of reprimanding FFT for suggesting as much over in the “Am I the only YEC” thread. Evidently he is just as confused as the textbook publishers.
Thanks - Trinity |
After perusing that thread again, I have no idea what you're talking about. |
Well of course you don't Ana. After discussing the Sternberg case with you I can see why this is. He wrote:
| FFT wrote: | | The technological and scientific advances due to work on the theory of evolution have become so subsumed into the whole of biology and other sciences that it's pretty difficult to come up with anything specific since there isn't some single organization that's done most of the work that's kept track of all of their inventions (unlike NASA). |
And then you say:
| Quote: | | I see the post I think you mean, but you're misinterpreting what he said. |
Naw... I think it is pretty clear what he wrote... of course... you know what he meant as you have that ability now evidently...
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JonMarie
Puppy
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 219
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Adaptation yes, evolution no.
Even Darwin refuted his theory of evolution prior to his death.
All creation bears witness of a Creator. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1641
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Not that it really has a bearing on anything, but sorry, that is not correct. He did not do that. Was refuted long ago. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5718
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't get it. What, exactly, do you think Ana should reprimand me for? |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | I don't get it. What, exactly, do you think Ana should reprimand me for? |
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Negative Overload
Big Guppy
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently Trinity thinks you use too many smilies?...
Anywho...
| Quote: | | He is the hero of the Atheists... |
Could you point out these atheists who engage in hero-worship of this guy? I don't know of any. They must be hiding somewhere near your neck of the woods?...
Maybe I'm not a high-enough level atheist to be invited to the Shrine of His Unholiness, Richard "the Great" Dawkins and partake of the ritual sacrificing of the baptised babies in His name?
You know, as I've left the temple on more than one occasion, I've thought I detected the scent of baby blood and burning Bibles. It was just a hint on the breeze, and just for a moment, but naturally I figured it was only my imagination.
Maybe it wasn't after all...
| Quote: | | mischaracterizes the character of the God I worship and love... |
How so? I'm not familiar with this, but I don't claim to be well-informed on any anti-God screeds he may have written. Can you point me to some?
| Quote: | | and you want me to be civil with his name? Sorry... I have nothing but contempt for homey and if my characterizations of him reflect that... good. |
I thought you were supposed to hate the sin and love the sinner?...
| Quote: | | Also... if you ever have the opportunity to speak with him.. tell him to get those chompers cleaned... its disgusting already. |
I tried to come up with a joke to this, but the above is really unfunny.
------------------------
I'm no miracle worker... |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1534
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Negative Overload wrote: |
| Quote: | | Also... if you ever have the opportunity to speak with him.. tell him to get those chompers cleaned... its disgusting already. |
I tried to come up with a joke to this, but the above is really unfunny. |
Yes, it really is in poor taste, isn't it? |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Negative Overload wrote: | Apparently Trinity thinks you use too many smilies?...
Anywho...
| Quote: | | He is the hero of the Atheists... |
Could you point out these atheists who engage in hero-worship of this guy? I don't know of any... |
Of course you don't.... I wouldn't expect you to visit some of the blogs and anti-creationist websites out there that spend half of their band width extolling the virtues of Lil Dick... Just take a peek at our sister board CT for examples of folks quoting Lil D’s God Delusion… it is really pathetic.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | mischaracterizes the character of the God I worship and love... |
How so? I'm not familiar with this, but I don't claim to be well-informed on any anti-God screeds he may have written. Can you point me to some? |
I wouldn't figure you would be aware of any... but then again, I'm sure you aren't looking to hard either. It took me all of... um... 32.8 seconds to find this one :
| Lil Dicky in the God Delusion wrote: | | "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" (The God Delusion, p. 31), |
So yeah... homey does mischaracterize the God I worship... is there anything else you would like to add?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | and you want me to be civil with his name? Sorry... I have nothing but contempt for homey and if my characterizations of him reflect that... good. |
I thought you were supposed to hate the sin and love the sinner?... |
Is this what you thought... or is this what you have heard? If you have heard this... is this from the Bible... or is this someone's opinion of what the Bible says?
Also... I've never claimed to be an example of any type of what a Christian should be... or do. Some of us serve no other purpose but to be bad examples. |
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