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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: A response to Paul2 |
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Hi Paul
I have not been able answer your question; Yet. I praise the LORD for this site, where I can get input, from someone in Australia. Good to here from you.
-When I get an answer, I will try to look you up!- |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Another response to Paul2 |
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Hi Paul2
My problem, in answering your question, came out of my forgetting, who it is that wrote the Bible. Instead of trying to figure out what was going through Paul’s mind, as he penned this verse, we need to figure out what was going through the LORD’s mind, as He give these words to Paul.
(1) Was it a message to the Jews, to be open to other manuscripts?
(2) Or was it a test to the Jews, to get them to search the Scriptures?
(3) Or was it placed there for us to find, to get us to search the scriptures, and to test our faith?
(4) Or was it placed there, for you to find, in order for you to make your point?
I don’t have the answer to this question yet, but what I do know, is that we need to keep in mind, is that God our Creator, is Omniscient, and He doesn’t make any mistakes. As for the copies of the original texts, that were used back in 1611 to translate this verse. we need to trust that God was able to keep them from error.
There is a certain point, where we need to give up, on trying to have a pat answer to every question in the world, and simply trust our God. We are just men, with limited understanding. So it is unrealistic to think, that we are going to be able to grasp, God’s grand plan for the universe.
I am so very thankful to you, for asking this question, and causing me to get back on track. |
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alxphilosopher
Not So Newbie
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Bidwell, OH
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm confused...when confronted with a direct question citing an example of the difference in translation between what you have been claiming the whole time is the best OT source to translate from and the other OT you say is not the best, your ultimate answer is that God would not let an error occur while at the same time this thread was started under the premise that Satan is causing errors to occur and that is what you're trying to warn everyone about?
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Administrator of The Alexandrian Library - Christian Studies
http://groups.google.com/group/alexandrian-library-christian-studies/ |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi alxphilosopher
Nice to hear from you, and welcome to the forum.
You asked........
| Quote: | “I'm confused...when confronted with a direct question citing an example of the difference in translation between what you have been claiming the whole time is the best OT source to translate from and the other OT you say is not the best......”
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Well I am confused sometimes myself. And this is one question that is really confusing.
(1) If, the Masoretic text of the Old Testament, is indeed the better one:
(2) Why would Jesus and some of the disciples(sometimes), quote from the LXX, when preaching and teaching?
--------------------------------------------------
Well here is my answer, right now.
2000 years ago, the world’s main language was Greek(because of Rome’s influence), and therefore almost everyone(including the Jews), learn to speak and read Greek.
And at that time, the only Greek version of the Old Testament that was available was the LXX.
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It could be that this version of the Old Testament was quoted “sometimes”, because it was the one the people of that time were used to reading?!?!
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I wish that I could give you a better answer, but that’s the only one that I have now.
As for my contention, that the Masoretic text is “better” than the LXX:
(This is pretty much settled in my mind, because the Masoretic text was a copy, in the original languages of the Old Testament, while the LXX had be translated into Greek.)
If I could accurately read Greek and Heb., than I might not be a KJV man, but I can’t.
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You continued saying.........
| Quote: | “your ultimate answer is that God would not let an error occur while at the same time this thread was started under the premise that Satan is causing errors to occur and that is what you're trying to warn everyone about?”
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Well this is something, that CAN NOT BE DENIED! God is still on the throne, and He will continue to preserve His Word for us and future generations.
(This is a question of faith, for me.)
Also my premise, that Satan is actively attacking God’s Word. I stand by that also.
(He started in the garden, when he said to Eve, in Genesis 3:1......
“Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”
Satan wants to put “?’s” all over the Word of God, so that we will doubt that God has been able to preserve it. But this is a lie.
God Word, is a solid rock, that we can build our lives upon.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.
We have had a power outage here.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 684
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| AlxPhilosopher wrote: | | "Your ultimate answer is that God would not let an error occur." |
We believe what BigApe meant to say was: "God has not allowed an error to occur - but only in the King James Version. Every version after that is riddled with errors, because Satan has controlled every translation committee since 1611."
BigApe has taken a bold stance, to say the least, but we feel it flies in the face of both common sense and the faith that God will preserve His Word. Since my wife and I study directly from the Hebrew and Greek, we find that all versions give a colored view of what was actually written - including the King James Version. But, at the same time, we find that most of the newer versions are completely in line with what the original writers intended to say (just as the King James Version was in line).
The biggest problem we have (as Christians trying to follow the teachings of Christ) is not which version we use... but how we choose to translate the version we use. |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | We believe what BigApe meant to say was: "God has not allowed an error to occur - but only in the King James Version. Every version after that is riddled with errors, because Satan has controlled every translation committee since 1611." |
Well, since you support all corruption of God's written words while always stating how Christian of you it is to do it why would you stop there. Your putting words in to another posters mouth reveals your anxious desire to usurp God given authority for your own purposes.
| Quote: | | Since my wife and I study directly from the Hebrew and Greek, |
Please state for us the version of Greek and Hebrew text you are using.
| Quote: | | we find that all versions give a colored view of what was actually written - including the King James Version. |
How boastful and prideful of you to claim to know more about translation than anyone else. The truth is GC's is that you've set youselves up as your own authority. Which is why you will not submit to God's written word under the pretense that you haven't yet discovered it.
| Quote: | | But, at the same time, we find that most of the newer versions are completely in line with what the original writers intended to say |
More boasting!!! Here you claim to somehow know what the original writers intents were!!!
| Quote: | | The biggest problem we have (as Christians trying to follow the teachings of Christ) is not which version we use... but how we choose to translate the version we use. |
And, here the GC's state that what they think is important is that Christians know how to translate for themselves. Which is just the GC's promoting their own methodology rather than God's way.
Joman. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Your choice of the word "inspired" seems rather bizarre. Those very translators used the Geneva Bible for their own personal Bible, either they chose their own personal bible incorrectly and they simply were not inspired, or the Geneva Bible was more important to them.
Bigape you seem to have left out of your consideration (sadly) the political implications of what they were doing and why. Like it or not the act of creating this KJV was a religious/political event and not merely a translation of a book. Each and everyone of them was well aware of the implication of their work, they were chosen not for their brilliant translation efforts but for their compliance to the local theocratic and political scenario they lived in. AND they were limited to that for their choices of words and phrases.
One cannot leave out the warfare between the Anglicans and the Catholics and their various dogmatic positions they might have held. England had just gone through 100 years of bloody head chopping and burning at the stake over the very issues you bring up to us. Thousands of Bibles were burned not for translation errors but for differences in dogmatic positions.
Lastly, your ignorance of what went on in the translation circles of Europe between the textus receptus and the KJV, is showing. Too much of that KJV comes directly from the Coverdale translation (exactly transposed) to give credit totally for the KJV translators and their "inspiration." There were many people outside of the "authorized group" who also had input into this effort.
Unlike you, I've actually seen these Bibles from the 17th century and studied the history of how the KJV came into being and you are simply displaying your ignorance. Undoubtedly you came to this position not by hard study but from whomever took you down this aisle of the dogma store and sold you this position.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Paul2 wrote: | KJV Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
LXX Dt 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
KJV
Dt 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
From which passage of scripture in the KJV OT source/sources is the writer to the Hebrews quoting? |
I don't know.
However, there is no valid historical evidence of any such thing as a Septuagint before Origen.
So, Origen probably inserted the phrase into his Greek translation of the Old Testament.
Note the great differences in the two Duet 32:43 verses (KJV compared to the Septuagint).
Does the Old Testament Hebrew text of Duet 32:43 support the Septuagint or the KJV?
Maybe the GC's can enlighten on this subject.
Joman. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 684
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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The opening of Deuteronomy 32:43 reads differently in the Masoretic text (the Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible, which has been widely used as the basis for translation of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles, and even a few Catholic Bibles), the Septuagint (the Koine Greek version of the Old Testament, generally translated between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC in Alexandria), and in one Qumran text (from the popularly known Dead Sea Scrolls).
The Masoretic text has one line: "O nations, rejoice His people."
4Q has a bicolon (which is a pair of adjacent lines of poetry, in which the second echos the meaning of the first): "O heavens, rejoice with Him - bow to Him, all divinities."
The Septuagint has two bicola: "O heavens, rejoice with Him - bow to Him, all sons of the divine. O nations, rejoice with His people - and let all messengers of the divine strengthen themselves in Him."
If we've somehow mistranslated these versions, please let us know; but that's how we currently read them.
Last edited by GospelCompilation on Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:03 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi 45degreeN
You said.........
| Quote: | “Your choice of the word "inspired" seems rather bizarre.”
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I don’t recall using the word “inspired” in this thread, although I do believe that God’s Word is inspired, and that is in no way “bizarre”.
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Although your next statement is “bizarre”........
| Quote: | “Those very translators used the Geneva Bible for their own personal Bible, either they chose their own personal bible incorrectly and they simply were not inspired, or the Geneva Bible was more important to them.”
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What Bible the translators used, is of no importance, but it is good to know, that they were “Bible believers” and studied God’s Word.
But the bizarre part of your response, is when you say........
“they simply were not inspired”
The translators, WERE NEVER INSPIRED! They were simply translating God’s inspired Word.
--------------------------------------------------
Your next three paragraphs, demonstrates that you are a victim of the “mis-information” that has been spread about the KJV........
| Quote: | “Bigape you seem to have left out of your consideration (sadly) the political implications of what they were doing and why. Like it or not the act of creating this KJV was a religious/political event and not merely a translation of a book. Each and everyone of them was well aware of the implication of their work, they were chosen not for their brilliant translation efforts but for their compliance to the local theocratic and political scenario they lived in. AND they were limited to that for their choices of words and phrases.
One cannot leave out the warfare between the Anglicans and the Catholics and their various dogmatic positions they might have held. England had just gone through 100 years of bloody head chopping and burning at the stake over the very issues you bring up to us. Thousands of Bibles were burned not for translation errors but for differences in dogmatic positions.
Lastly, your ignorance of what went on in the translation circles of Europe between the textus receptus and the KJV, is showing. Too much of that KJV comes directly from the Coverdale translation (exactly transposed) to give credit totally for the KJV translators and their "inspiration." There were many people outside of the "authorized group" who also had input into this effort.”
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This the classic lie that has been told about the KJV, for years now, and no matter how many times it is proven wrong, some people still believe it.
(Kind of like the lie of Darwinism.)
--------------------------------------------------
In your last paragraph, you talk about how you have studied history; But it is clear that you have been studying the revisionists version of history.
The KJV was translated, almost 400 years ago; This is a long time, for those God haters, to make up a lot of stories, that simply are not true.
A great example of the power of mis-information, is the last 8 years. President Bush, brought us back from the brink of collapse, at 9-11, and has kept us safe from more attacks for 7 years.
But yet those who hate him, have convinced almost everyone, that he was responsible for 9-11.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | The Masoretic text has one line: "O nations, rejoice His people." |
Not according to the Jewish Publication Society!!! You can verify by going to the Mechon-mamre.org site.
That you claim it is only one line that reads as you have written above is very odd don't you think?
How can the Septuagint that Origen wrote in ~150AD have words never found in the Hebrew text?
Don't you see that he inserted them from the Greek New Testament as a greek translation into his Greek Septuagint. Note how it reads identically which many actual translations don't since the translation is into another language whereas in this case it was simply Greek into Greek.[/quote]
| Quote: | | If we've somehow mistranslated these versions, please let us know; but that's how we currently read them. |
You've been told. the quetion is why you have to be told when you claim you have the ability to determine intent and translation all by yourselves?
Joman. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 684
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Joman wrote: | | "The question is why you have to be told, when you claim you have the ability to determine intent and translation all by yourselves?" |
Hmm... sort of like, why must you be told that you speak carnal words of the flesh, when you claim to know what Scripture says about causing dissension among believers?
It makes us wonder, Joman, if you have any idea what the gospel of Jesus Christ is... or, does your religion consist solely of defending the veracity of the King James Version? |
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Luke245
Puppy
Joined: 12 Sep 2008
Posts: 219
Location: IL
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Though I speak with the tongues of Elizabethean English, and have not charity, I am become [as] one tooting my own horn, or an annoying Barry Manilow record.
And though I have [the gift of] perfect translation, and understand all jots, tittles, iotas, and all ancient Hebraisms and Greek figures of speech; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains of misreadings, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my wrong bible translations to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned at the pyre of Westcott and Hort, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2845
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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"Alms for the poor(-ly educated)"
"Alms for the poor(-ly educated)"
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1047
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think I watched this parade before.
Get out the Bag Pipes
JB |
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