 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Are the annointed 144,000 all male virgins? |
| YES! Only Male Virgins will be allowed in to heaven! |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| NO! It's not a literal bunch of males & not literal virgins! |
|
66% |
[ 2 ] |
| I don't know. |
|
33% |
[ 1 ] |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
|
 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
 |
|
I would not mind hearing what JB has to say.
I have been checking out the new posts in this thread for several days and have noticed a few dubious claims and flawed logic, though I have not said anything.
If I may comment, this bit is a prime example of what I mean: | TBax wrote: | Either the Bible is correct and Jesus is a god who is subject to His Father, Jehovah, as Jehovah is the God of gods. Or the only other possibility is Jesus is God Almighty. It cannot be both or neither. 
Make your choice.  |
It must truly be a priveleged existence to have God figured out to such an extent that one can make such a statement. Jesus' nature, narrowed down to two possibilities. Incredible.
Well, for those who would consider it, I have a third possibility. One that may not be popular with purists on either side, but I do believe it is supported by scripture.
Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater than He. Paul wrote that when all things are put under Christ's feet, it is clear that the one exception would be He who put all things under Christ's feet.
Jesus said Himself that He received all He has from His Father. Dreams by prophets in the old testament show the Ancient of Days, who already had all power and authroity, giving power and authority to the Son of Man.
Peter told a crowd in Acts that God had made Jesus whom they had crucified both Lord and Christ.
So whatever Jesus has, it was given to Him by His Father, who is greater than He. BTW, that would seem to contradict the trinitarian creed which states that all three are equal and the same.
However, Jesus in several places spoke in the person of God.
He told the Jews in John 8 "Before Abraham was, I AM." I know that organizations who deny Christ being God do some fancy theological sleight of hand to get this to not say that, but the fact is when Jesus said this, the Jews He was speaking to became enraged and wanted to kill Him. They caught it. They weren't explaining it away.
He said "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments", a reference to a statement made by God Allmighty in Exodus. In fact I believe it was stated where God declared His Name to Moses. Think about that. Jesus, quoting from God declaring His name, and applying that to Himself.
Look at what Jesus also told the high priest :
Matt 26:
| Quote: | 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. |
Why did the high priest consider Jesus' statement a blasphemy?
Because every Jew knew that in the old testament, when God is described as coming in judgement as He did when when He sent Babylon against Israel, the event is described as God coming in the clouds of heaven. The high priest recognized that Jesus was making an allusion to old testament scriptures of God coming in judgement.
Jesus was saying "You will see Me coming as God in judgment against you". We Christians today literalize this statement and totally miss the point of it. Small wonder the Witnesses don't think Jesus is God and are instead looking for Him to arrive on literal clouds and sieze control of our planet and set up an earthly police state, er, I mean utopian kingdom society. 
I think Jesus was correct in saying that His Father is greater than He. I do not believe the Godhead is 3 persons who are equal and the same. But I think scripture shows that He was given all authority in heaven and earth. He was given even the quality of being God, the quality of being Deity.
And luvnlife, I also believe you know where you belong. It's where you are free. Where you can follow the truth as God reveals it to you, not in a place where you are required to believe something because the leadership of some organization says it is the truth, though you know it not to be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
JB,
| JB wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Deut 10:17 has to do with the conversation I am having with luvnlife. |
That may be true but you are on a public forum and since you misrepresent this text, I think that because I am a part of this forum, I have the option of opposing your teaching. |
That may be true. But your question showed you didn't uderstand why I used that verse. If you want to be included, then be kind enough to catch up by reading the other posts to see why I used that scripture in responding to luvnlife.
I didn't misrepresent the text of Deut 10:17. Jehovah is indeed the God of gods. The point is solid. The Bible properly refers to other as gods whom Jehovah is God over.
If you think Jesus is "the God" that is to be worshiped then you better go back in time and tell Jesus, because I don't think he got that memo.
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
luvnlife,
At this point, it is really quite simple. You are arguing from a trinitarian viewpoint. Since, in the Bible, Jesus is called a god, even a mighty god, there are only two possible choices.
Either the Bible is correct and Jesus is a god who is subject to His Father, Jehovah, as Jehovah is the God of gods. Or the only other possibility is Jesus is God Almighty. It cannot be both or neither.
Make your choice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is there an echo in here? A cyber-echo?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Sis!
| Quote: | Lone: I'm not quite with you on this one though since Jesus was begotten of Gods spirit and the two are in agreement or accordance with the other and Jesus came to do God's will, not his own, in this sense I do believe they are as one. I like the comparison you made about man and wife becoming one flesh. It fits with the relationship between God and Jesus as they are of one heart, mind and soul. In that regard, they are as one.
Luv |
I agree that this is a hard subject indeed.
hard to put the concept into words.
try to use another analogy.
In the beginning God said..let there be a clay vessel.
This vessel was concieved in God's heart and mind and became a material vessel.
Now the vessel is God's and it is also the earth's because the vessel was created from the dirt of the earth.
So all "natural" things belong to God. But they are not spiritual, they are carnal. And so God gave to the world the things which were carnal.
Then God said..Let the clay vessel be filled with water.
This water is not carnal, this water is God's very own spirit which fills it.
So now we have a new thing. We have a carnal vessel which belonged to the world filled with spiritual water which belongs to God.
God says this filled vessel (both carnal and spiritual) he his begotten as his own.
The two become one.
Now the vessel does not belong to the carnal world anymore God has begotten the vessel. But the water in it, the spirit in it has always been his own.
So when the Word (water/spirit) became flesh (carnal/vessel)..The flesh and spirit became one. God claimed both as one. He redeemed the flesh from the world, and called it his own.
When Jesus speaks we see the clay vessel moving it's mouth, but th words which come out of the vessel (the spirit and water) is God's very own words and spirit.
So Jesus is both vessel and water which fills it.
When Jesus died the "vessel" flesh of man was redeemed from the earth and called his own.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
What this verse says to me is that all vessels of clay shall be filled with the spirit of the Lord.
That all flesh is his and he has begotten it from the world.
And Jesus the word made flesh came to save that which was lost..and that is the flesh which had sold itself to sin and to walk in th ways of carnal lusts.
To be filled with all unrighteousness and lawlessness.
He (the spirit of God) came, cleaned the inside of the vessel (flesh body)with his spirit, filled the vessel (flesh body)with his spirit, and created a new thing.
The flesh infused with the spirit of God.
So now the flesh and the spirit are no longer seperated, they are one in the same.
And the man (flesh of Jesus) is the first vessel which was begotten of God spirit.
There are two elements at issue. The flesh and the spirit.
The spirit is God and has always been with God. It is his very essence..himself.
The flesh of man God gave to the world. It became empty and void of God's spirit. And so the world claimed the flesh as it's own.
Then God took the flesh and infused it with his spirit..and this new body both flesh and spirit God begat as his own.
hard to define..that's for sure..
hugs luv.
lone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1096
Location: US
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lone: | Quote: | 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. |
This brings up a good point. What I see when I read this is that, like Jesus, we are important to God our Father. Jesus called us brethren, brothers and sisters. God called us His adopted children (but He called Jesus His only begotten son).
Jesus is indeed so special not only to us but also to God, his Father. It is true that Jesus is a part of his Father because he was created from his Fathers spirit. They share the same virtues and values. They are one in accord with each other though they are separate beings. There is one God and there is one son of God (but many adopted sons and daughters).
I believe Jesus is King, Lord and so much more. Only his Father is God though.
Love ya' sis!
Luv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| luvnlife wrote: | Lone: | Quote: | 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. |
This brings up a good point. What I see when I read this is that, like Jesus, we are important to God our Father. Jesus called us brethren, brothers and sisters. God called us His adopted children (but He called Jesus His only begotten son).
Jesus is indeed so special not only to us but also to God, his Father. It is true that Jesus is a part of his Father because he was created from his Fathers spirit. They share the same virtues and values. They are one in accord with each other though they are separate beings. There is one God and there is one son of God (but many adopted sons and daughters).
I believe Jesus is King, Lord and so much more. Only his Father is God though.
Love ya' sis!
Luv |
and I can except that, because we are all on the same side regardless if we believe Jesus is the son or is the Father or is our brother. Because I read in the bible that he is all and in all..and so are we.
I believe Jehovah is the son and also the Father and a brother of us all too.
And we all believe in One God and One Lord..so what are we arguing about..? I forgot..
Ok big picture..ready..
In the beginning God...and he made everything that was made..and he saw everything he made was good..and here we all are..and we are his..
end of story..
hugs
lone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1096
Location: US
|
| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lone: | Quote: | Ok big picture..ready..
In the beginning God...and he made everything that was made..and he saw everything he made was good..and here we all are..and we are his..
end of story..
hugs
lone |
I like that ending, sis!
Luv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
