The letter to King James

bigape · Alley Cat Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 176

Below, is a document, that is about 400 years old. It was jointly written, by the men that had just finished translating the King James Bible; This is by far, the most important English translation of the Holy Bible, in human history. As you read this letter, that had been written to the King, you will begin to understand, why this translation, was named after King James. If it hadn't been for the King, using his authority to bring about this translation, the political powers at the time, would have never let this work be completed.

You might be wondering, how I can call this Bible, "the best" English translation. Well, history proves that it is. For over three hundred years, this was "the Bible", used by English speaking Christians, all around the world. No Christian doubted, that it was God's Holy Word, because of the power found within it's pages. It wasn't until the late 1800's, that man's pride and arrogance, brought about a supposed "improvement" upon the Bible, and for the last hundred years or so, the Church has witnessed the gradual and devastating effects, of a loss of God's power. This is happening because more and more of God's people are moving away from His Word.

One more thing; The fourth paragraph of this document, is most interesting, because it identifies the two main groups, that did not want this new English translation to be completed. This is the reason, it needed a Kings proclamation, in the first place.
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To the most high and mighty prince

JAMES,

By the Grace of God,

King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland,

Defender of the Faith, &c.

The translators of the Bible wish grace, mercy, And peace, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

GREAT and manifold were the blessings, most dread Sovereign, which Almighty God, the Father of all mercies, bestowed upon us the people of England, when first he sent Your Majesty's Royal Person to rule and reign over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our Zion, that upon the setting of that bright Occidental Star, Queen Elizabeth of most happy memory, some thick and palpable clouds of darkness would so have overshadowed this Land, that men should have been in doubt which way they were to walk; and that It should hardly be known, who was to direct the unsettled State; the appearance of Your Majesty, as of the Sun in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the Government established in Your Highness, and Your hopeful Seed, by an undoubted Title, and this also accompanied with peace and tranquillity at home and abroad.

But among all our joys, there was no one that more filled our hearts, than the blessed continuance of the preaching of God's sacred Word among us; which is that inestimable treasure, which excelleth all the riches of the earth; because the fruit thereof extendeth itself, not only to the time spent in this transitory world, but directeth and disposeth men unto that eternal happiness which is above in heaven. Then not to suffer this to fall to the ground, but rather to take it up, and to continue it In that state, wherein the famous Predecessor of Your Highness did leave it: nay, to go forward with the confidence and resolution of a Man In maintaining the truth of Christ, and propagating it far and near, is that which hath so bound and firmly knit the hearts of all Your Majesty's loyal and religious people unto You, that Your very name is precious among them: their eye doth behold You with comfort, and they bless You in their hearts, as that sanctified Person, who, under God, is the immediate Author of their true happiness. And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe, that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in defense of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed,) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the Teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing Father.

THE EPISTLE DEDICATORY

There are infinite arguments of this right Christian and religious affection in Your Majesty; but none is more forcible to declare it to others than the vehement and perpetuated desire of accomplishing and publishing of this work, which now with all humility we present unto Your Majesty. For when Your Highness had once out of deep judgment apprehended how convenient it was, that out of the Original Sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labors, both in our own, and other foreign Languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue; Your Majesty did never desist to urge and to excite those to whom it was commended, that the work might be hastened, and that the business might be expedited in so decent a manner, as a matter of such importance might justly require.

And now at last, by the mercy of God, and the continuance of our labors, it being brought unto such a conclusion, as that we have great hopes that the Church of England shall reap good fruit thereby; we hold it our duty to offer it to Your Majesty, not only as to our King and Sovereign, but as to the principal Mover and Author of the work: humbly craving of Your most Sacred Majesty, that since things of this quality have ever been subject to the censures of illmeaning and discontented persons, it may receive approbation and patronage from so learned and judicious a Prince as Your Highness is, whose allowance and acceptance of our labors shall more honor and encourage us, than all the calumniations and hard interpretations of other men shall dismay us. So that if, on the one side, we shall be traduced by Popish Persons at home or abroad, who therefore will malign us, because we are poor instruments to make God's holy Truth to be yet more and more known unto the people, whom they desire still to keep in Ignorance and darkness; or if, on the other side, we shall be maligned by self-conceited Brethren, who run their own ways, and give liking unto nothing, but what is framed by themselves, and hammered on their anvil; we may rest secure, supported within by the truth and innocency of a good conscience, having walked the ways of simplicity and integrity, as before the Lord; and sustained without by the powerful protection of Your Majesty's grace and favor, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavors against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations.

The Lord of heaven and earth bless Your Majesty with many and happy days, that, as his heavenly hand hath enriched Your Highness with many singular and extraordinary graces, so You may be the wonder of the world in this latter age for happiness and true felicity, to the honor of that great GOD, and the good of his Church, through Jesus Christ our Lord and only Savior.
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This is the exact letter, that can be found in most older King James Bibles(1950's), that you can find, laying around today.

Mattathias · Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject:

bigape.

I'm curious about your views on the English language translations that were published prior to the KJV in 1611. In your view, were those earlier translations reliable? Did Christains doubt or accept the earlier translations as God's Holy Word?

45degreeN · Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:

So much more has been learned about the Greek language and the Bible itself that it is preposterous to think that this original KJV is anything but a curiosity today. The other thing is that the authority to publish was a very political thing not a religious one.

Prior to the KJV being published Wycliffe had been the first to offer the bible in English although it would be hardly readable today since English has grown so much in the mean time. There were other translators who published between Wycliffe's time and the KJV each with their own and various differences. But these translators risked their lives doing the work of translating. Bible scholars have learned from many manuscripts found since the time of the KJV and to understand the history of the English Bible one needs far more than the KJV to develop that understanding. The history of King Henry VIII and King James is worth while thing to research and understand why this work was published the way it was.

In Wycliffe's time the King had far less to say about his kingdom than the pope who got more taxes from the English than the king. It is a fascinating study. But please don't insult our intelligence and belt us with the nut case of KJV only. The "authorization" is not as special as you make it out to be.

At the very least the New King James Bible is more readable.

bigape · Alley Cat Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 176

Hi Mattathias

I am anxious to respond to your question. Yes of course, the earlier English translations were reliable, because they were translated from reliable sources. The Textus Receptus for the New Testament, and the Masoretic text, for the Old Testament.

What set the KJV apart from them was it’s intended use. The KJV was the first English Bible, specifically intended, to be mass-produced, and given to the common man. This is why it had so many enemies; Because the powers that be, did not want to allow the average Christian, to have access to God’s Word.

Just as there are those today, who think that only Scholars, can rightly divide the Word of truth, and look down their noses at anyone that dares to correct them.

I hope this answered your questions; If not, log back on.

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Now for you King Kong (Boy I like that handle)

I understand your point, and as I just said to Mattathias, about the unique plans, the translators had in mind for the KJV, your statement brought this out. (You said “But these translators risked their lives doing the work of translating”). For the most part, there were no more English translations made, during the centuries following the KJV, because most Christians, realized the superiority of this translation. But hundreds of people still risked their lives(and lost their lives), in the making of copies, of the KJV.

As for my KJV only stand: You may have noticed, the phraseology that I consistently use, when talking about the superiority of the KJV, I designate it, (for English speaking people). This is always done purposely, because of a false teaching out there, called “Double inspiration”. There are some misguided folks, that so lift up the KJV, that they have come to the conclusion, that 400 years ago, when it was translated, that it was freshly inspired. (This is a false teaching.) Therefore, I make it clear, that the KJV, is only superior to “all other English translations”. -And I still stand by that belief!-

In just a few minutes(on May 19, 2008), I plan to post a new message, entitled, “-The only Bible that can be trusted-“, and in about four paragraphs, I will lay the issue to rest, about the KJV controversy. (At least for me.)

But please don’t think, that I don’t want to hear from you again. I have enough sense to realize, that I don’t know it all, and that I just might be wrong about some things. This is one reason that I have come here.

It has been nice talking to the two of you. Hope to visit with you again.

FFT · Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:44 am Post subject:

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 531

45degreeN

You said:

So much more has been learned about the Greek language and the Bible itself that it is preposterous to think that this original KJV is anything but a curiosity today. The other thing is that the authority to publish was a very political thing not a religious one.

The truth is, the KJV has strong ties to Catholic influence.

Excellent post. Thank You.

JB

bigape · Alley Cat Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 176

Hi Galaxy

The standard of measurement, by which I come to the conclusion, that the KJV is superior, has nothing to do with it’s readability or the kind of English it uses, or even whether or not I like it, better than other versions. None of these things matter; All that matters is it’s accuracy. And when it comes to accuracy, THE KING JAMES VERSION IS SUPERIOR!

We need to keep in mind, that we aren’t talking about some regular book, written by a man. We are talking about a document, that was written by God and penned by men. The Bible itself, tells us that “every word found within it, was composed by God” (2Timothy 3:16,17) etal. This is a fundamental belief, that you either have or don’t have. The way I see it, is a person either believes the Bible or they don’t; there is no middle ground.

As for your statement about science. Your statement itself, isn’t talking about the Bible, at all. It is talking about Religion. And I fully agree; “Religion” tries to control people’s lives, while Christianity(based on the Bible), sets people free. I have always said, that “Religion sends more people to hell, than anything else”. It is a factual statement to say, that Bible believing Christians, have no fear at all, of true science. Because every true scientific discovery, backs up the Bible. E.G. For about 170 years, Darwinism/Evolution, was a theory that was more and more looked upon, as a fact(simply because it was the only explanation that unbelievers had, to explain how we got here). But as true science has grown, and the study of genetics has blossomed, it has become clear, that there is no way, that human beings evolved from lower forms of life.

Sorry that I am being so long-winded here, but I am passionate about this subject.

I hope that this has answered your questions. If not, I look forward to hearing from you again.

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Hello 45degreeN (Sorry I called you King Kong before)

I can see, that sometimes we can get confused, if we say “you said:” Because I thought that you were the one, that made this statement “....KJV is anything but a curiosity today....”. Anyway, as for the forces that may have influenced the translators, as they were going about there work, it is all speculation. Because we couldn’t have seen what was going on in their minds. I agree, that there is one case, were they used, a word that they maybe shouldn’t have: “Easter”(Passover); And I agree, that they might should have used, the same word that they had used, the 23 other times.

But the word Easter, is only found in the Bible one time. And I see it being used, in a roundabout good way anyway. E.G. If some unbeliever, wants an excuse not to believe the Bible, then here it is. You see, the LORD won’t force us to do anything. If we choose to believe the Bible, than that’s great. If we choose to reject it, that’s fine with God. True belief, starts with nature(natural revelation). When we as human beings, look up into the sky at night etc. we are faced with a decision. Are we going to use the light, that nature is giving us, and “give in” to that desire to know the Creator. Or are we going to reject that light, and go into Spiritual darkness, and end up dying and going to hell, for all eternity.

Don’t get me wrong: In order to be saved, you must trust Jesus Christ as your Savior. But weather you live in the a deep dark jungle, or in some Islamic Nation, it doesn’t matter. If a person uses the light that God gives them in nature, and has a heart that wants to know their Creator, than God will arrange for them to come into contact with a Christian. We know this because of Titus 2:11 and because of the fact that God is Righteous and will not ever send anyone to hell, without a chance to be saved.

See you later.

FFT · Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject:

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 531

FFT,

You asked:

What? It was explicitly written to have a Protestant swing on things, how does it have "strong ties to Catholic influence"

I agree with what you are saying but, the texts that were used to create the KJV were strongly influenced by the Catholic Church.

It was Pope Saint Damascus that appointed Jerome with the task of cleaning up the Scriptures in the third century. This was a Latin translation. The Latin Vulgate version by 500 AD was the Only text that was allowed to be use by order of the Catholic Church.

In many of the Catholic KJV we see books that we do not embrace as Canonical. They didn't add them,We removed them.

Book of Judith and Bel and the dragon are just a couple.

The works of Wycliffe were the direct result of interpretation of the Latin Vulgate.

Wycliffe's works were used in the development of the KJV.

During the reformation other versions were developed with out the help of the Latin Vulgate version. WHy? Because they saw the catholic influence. Luther removed many books and some were never restored.

Here ae some independent works.

Tyndale's Bible in 1525
Coverdale's Bible inn 1535
Matthews' Bible 1537
Cromwell's, or the "Great Bible"

These were works that weren't influenced by the catholic Church.

So what text was used to develop the KJV?

JB

FFT · Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject:

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 531

FFT,

Here is a little history:

The New Testament canon of the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible are the same with 27 Books.

The difference in the Old Testaments actually goes back to the time before and during Christ’s life. At this time, there was no official Jewish canon of scripture.

The Jews in Egypt translated their choices of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek in the second century before Christ. This translation of 46 books, called the Septuagint, had wide use in the Roman world because most Jews lived far from Palestine in Greek cities. Many of these Jews spoke only Greek.

The early Christian Church was born into this world. The Church, with its bilingual Jews and more and more Greek-speaking Gentiles, used the books of the Septuagint as its Bible. Remember the early Christians were just writing the documents what would become the New Testament.

After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, with increasing persecution from the Romans and competition from the fledgling Christian Church, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of Scripture, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint.

The books removed were Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom (of Solomon), Sirach, and Baruch. Parts of existing books were also removed including Psalm 151 (from Psalms), parts of the Book of Esther, Susanna (from Daniel as chapter 13), and Bel and the Dragon (from Daniel as chapter 14).

The Christian Church did not follow suit but kept all the books in the Septuagint. 46 + 27 = 73 Books total.

1500 years later, Protestants decided to keep the Catholic New Testament but change its Old Testament from the Catholic canon to the Jewish canon. The King James Version was published in 1611.

The books that were removed supported such things as
• Prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45)
• Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7)
• Intercession of saints in heaven (2 Maccabees 15:14)
• Intercession of angels (Tobit 12:12-15)

The books they dropped are sometimes called the Apocrypha.

I use all English texts guardedly. I spend much time studying the Greek since it is the oldest text available to me.

I don't criticize the KJV. I am just careful with it like most other texts available today. I have found small problems that people often times don't catch.

JB

bigape · Alley Cat Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 176

Hi FFT

Boy was I sorry, to read that you see the original autographs as hypothetical. Faith in God's Word, is our only hope, of getting out of this life, victoriously.

FFT · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:08 am Post subject:

Not the point. To claim that the original texts were divinely inspired does nothing to prove that the KJV was divinely inspired.

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 531

bigape,

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God.

This text has nothing to do with the scriptures but the Spirit of God speaking to His people.

Note: First faith comes by hearing and not reading.
Note: From the word (rema) of God. Which is defined as the spoken and not the written word.

You said:
Boy was I sorry, to read that you see the original autographs as hypothetical. Faith in God's Word, is our only hope, of getting out of this life, victoriously.

Truth is, the scriptures saves no man.

JB

bigape · Alley Cat Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 176

Hi JB

Your mistake is, you didn’t notice the context of this verse....

Romans 10:16,17
V.16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
V.17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by people preaching the Gospel, and others hearing it.
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But what is even more interesting, is the grander context; Which is (Romans 10:14-18). In V.14, we have the standard excuse used by many, trying to blame God, when people don’t get saved. And in Verses 15-18, we learn that if a person doesn’t get saved, it is his own fault; “For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?”

Unbelief is the world’s greatest problem!