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| Are the annointed 144,000 all male virgins? |
| YES! Only Male Virgins will be allowed in to heaven! |
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| NO! It's not a literal bunch of males & not literal virgins! |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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I would not mind hearing what JB has to say.
I have been checking out the new posts in this thread for several days and have noticed a few dubious claims and flawed logic, though I have not said anything.
If I may comment, this bit is a prime example of what I mean: | TBax wrote: | Either the Bible is correct and Jesus is a god who is subject to His Father, Jehovah, as Jehovah is the God of gods. Or the only other possibility is Jesus is God Almighty. It cannot be both or neither. 
Make your choice.  |
It must truly be a priveleged existence to have God figured out to such an extent that one can make such a statement. Jesus' nature, narrowed down to two possibilities. Incredible.
Well, for those who would consider it, I have a third possibility. One that may not be popular with purists on either side, but I do believe it is supported by scripture.
Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater than He. Paul wrote that when all things are put under Christ's feet, it is clear that the one exception would be He who put all things under Christ's feet.
Jesus said Himself that He received all He has from His Father. Dreams by prophets in the old testament show the Ancient of Days, who already had all power and authroity, giving power and authority to the Son of Man.
Peter told a crowd in Acts that God had made Jesus whom they had crucified both Lord and Christ.
So whatever Jesus has, it was given to Him by His Father, who is greater than He. BTW, that would seem to contradict the trinitarian creed which states that all three are equal and the same.
However, Jesus in several places spoke in the person of God.
He told the Jews in John 8 "Before Abraham was, I AM." I know that organizations who deny Christ being God do some fancy theological sleight of hand to get this to not say that, but the fact is when Jesus said this, the Jews He was speaking to became enraged and wanted to kill Him. They caught it. They weren't explaining it away.
He said "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments", a reference to a statement made by God Allmighty in Exodus. In fact I believe it was stated where God declared His Name to Moses. Think about that. Jesus, quoting from God declaring His name, and applying that to Himself.
Look at what Jesus also told the high priest :
Matt 26:
| Quote: | 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. |
Why did the high priest consider Jesus' statement a blasphemy?
Because every Jew knew that in the old testament, when God is described as coming in judgement as He did when when He sent Babylon against Israel, the event is described as God coming in the clouds of heaven. The high priest recognized that Jesus was making an allusion to old testament scriptures of God coming in judgement.
Jesus was saying "You will see Me coming as God in judgment against you". We Christians today literalize this statement and totally miss the point of it. Small wonder the Witnesses don't think Jesus is God and are instead looking for Him to arrive on literal clouds and sieze control of our planet and set up an earthly police state, er, I mean utopian kingdom society. 
I think Jesus was correct in saying that His Father is greater than He. I do not believe the Godhead is 3 persons who are equal and the same. But I think scripture shows that He was given all authority in heaven and earth. He was given even the quality of being God, the quality of being Deity.
And luvnlife, I also believe you know where you belong. It's where you are free. Where you can follow the truth as God reveals it to you, not in a place where you are required to believe something because the leadership of some organization says it is the truth, though you know it not to be. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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JB,
| JB wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Deut 10:17 has to do with the conversation I am having with luvnlife. |
That may be true but you are on a public forum and since you misrepresent this text, I think that because I am a part of this forum, I have the option of opposing your teaching. |
That may be true. But your question showed you didn't uderstand why I used that verse. If you want to be included, then be kind enough to catch up by reading the other posts to see why I used that scripture in responding to luvnlife.
I didn't misrepresent the text of Deut 10:17. Jehovah is indeed the God of gods. The point is solid. The Bible properly refers to other as gods whom Jehovah is God over.
If you think Jesus is "the God" that is to be worshiped then you better go back in time and tell Jesus, because I don't think he got that memo.
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
At this point, it is really quite simple. You are arguing from a trinitarian viewpoint. Since, in the Bible, Jesus is called a god, even a mighty god, there are only two possible choices.
Either the Bible is correct and Jesus is a god who is subject to His Father, Jehovah, as Jehovah is the God of gods. Or the only other possibility is Jesus is God Almighty. It cannot be both or neither.
Make your choice. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Is there an echo in here? A cyber-echo?  |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi Sis!
| Quote: | Lone: I'm not quite with you on this one though since Jesus was begotten of Gods spirit and the two are in agreement or accordance with the other and Jesus came to do God's will, not his own, in this sense I do believe they are as one. I like the comparison you made about man and wife becoming one flesh. It fits with the relationship between God and Jesus as they are of one heart, mind and soul. In that regard, they are as one.
Luv |
I agree that this is a hard subject indeed.
hard to put the concept into words.
try to use another analogy.
In the beginning God said..let there be a clay vessel.
This vessel was concieved in God's heart and mind and became a material vessel.
Now the vessel is God's and it is also the earth's because the vessel was created from the dirt of the earth.
So all "natural" things belong to God. But they are not spiritual, they are carnal. And so God gave to the world the things which were carnal.
Then God said..Let the clay vessel be filled with water.
This water is not carnal, this water is God's very own spirit which fills it.
So now we have a new thing. We have a carnal vessel which belonged to the world filled with spiritual water which belongs to God.
God says this filled vessel (both carnal and spiritual) he his begotten as his own.
The two become one.
Now the vessel does not belong to the carnal world anymore God has begotten the vessel. But the water in it, the spirit in it has always been his own.
So when the Word (water/spirit) became flesh (carnal/vessel)..The flesh and spirit became one. God claimed both as one. He redeemed the flesh from the world, and called it his own.
When Jesus speaks we see the clay vessel moving it's mouth, but th words which come out of the vessel (the spirit and water) is God's very own words and spirit.
So Jesus is both vessel and water which fills it.
When Jesus died the "vessel" flesh of man was redeemed from the earth and called his own.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
What this verse says to me is that all vessels of clay shall be filled with the spirit of the Lord.
That all flesh is his and he has begotten it from the world.
And Jesus the word made flesh came to save that which was lost..and that is the flesh which had sold itself to sin and to walk in th ways of carnal lusts.
To be filled with all unrighteousness and lawlessness.
He (the spirit of God) came, cleaned the inside of the vessel (flesh body)with his spirit, filled the vessel (flesh body)with his spirit, and created a new thing.
The flesh infused with the spirit of God.
So now the flesh and the spirit are no longer seperated, they are one in the same.
And the man (flesh of Jesus) is the first vessel which was begotten of God spirit.
There are two elements at issue. The flesh and the spirit.
The spirit is God and has always been with God. It is his very essence..himself.
The flesh of man God gave to the world. It became empty and void of God's spirit. And so the world claimed the flesh as it's own.
Then God took the flesh and infused it with his spirit..and this new body both flesh and spirit God begat as his own.
hard to define..that's for sure..
hugs luv.
lone |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Lone: | Quote: | 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. |
This brings up a good point. What I see when I read this is that, like Jesus, we are important to God our Father. Jesus called us brethren, brothers and sisters. God called us His adopted children (but He called Jesus His only begotten son).
Jesus is indeed so special not only to us but also to God, his Father. It is true that Jesus is a part of his Father because he was created from his Fathers spirit. They share the same virtues and values. They are one in accord with each other though they are separate beings. There is one God and there is one son of God (but many adopted sons and daughters).
I believe Jesus is King, Lord and so much more. Only his Father is God though.
Love ya' sis!
Luv |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | Lone: | Quote: | 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. |
This brings up a good point. What I see when I read this is that, like Jesus, we are important to God our Father. Jesus called us brethren, brothers and sisters. God called us His adopted children (but He called Jesus His only begotten son).
Jesus is indeed so special not only to us but also to God, his Father. It is true that Jesus is a part of his Father because he was created from his Fathers spirit. They share the same virtues and values. They are one in accord with each other though they are separate beings. There is one God and there is one son of God (but many adopted sons and daughters).
I believe Jesus is King, Lord and so much more. Only his Father is God though.
Love ya' sis!
Luv |
and I can except that, because we are all on the same side regardless if we believe Jesus is the son or is the Father or is our brother. Because I read in the bible that he is all and in all..and so are we.
I believe Jehovah is the son and also the Father and a brother of us all too.
And we all believe in One God and One Lord..so what are we arguing about..? I forgot..
Ok big picture..ready..
In the beginning God...and he made everything that was made..and he saw everything he made was good..and here we all are..and we are his..
end of story..
hugs
lone |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Lone: | Quote: | Ok big picture..ready..
In the beginning God...and he made everything that was made..and he saw everything he made was good..and here we all are..and we are his..
end of story..
hugs
lone |
I like that ending, sis!
Luv |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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OK.... I need some help clarifying something here that was brought up on the mymontana.com forum....
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women…”
- Rev. 14
If the 144,000 are all male and they were not defiled with women, what does this mean?
The interpretation on the mymontana.com site is that all or a good portion of the men are gay. This is not a judgment this is a question I have so please don't read more in to it than the question I am asking.
My interpretation is that the 144,000 will be those who never defiled, abused or used women for their own sexual pleasure and gratification. In other words, it does not preclude men who were in a loving monogamous relationship. It does not leave out men who have never had sexual relations. Am I on the right track or off my rocker?
Also, another question: Where does this leave women?
Luv |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: |
The interpretation on the mymontana.com site is that all or a good portion of the men are gay. |
 That is pretty funny.
A few things:
1.) Did having sex with a woman defile a man even under the old covenant? I remember reading it did if she was menstruating. But I do not recall reading that a man would be considered unclean for having sex with his wife. Correct me if I'm missing something. If it's not in the old testament, how did we get it in our heads that sex, which most of us will acknowlege is a beautiful thing that God designed, defiles us? OK, maybe that should be answered in another thread.
2.) Does the Revelation ever even say the 144,000 are men? It has been pointed out on this board that in at least one place, it compares the 144,000 with the vestal virgins of pagan religions. I have to wonder if that was merely a way of showing that Jesus is the true Way and those pagan religions and their traditions were counterfeits. Jesus is the fulfillment of the hopes of all religions.
If you look at the first page or two of this thread, you will see that I posted that I don't think the 144,000 are literal men, nor is the number even literal. Everywhere they are described, the description matches that of the whole church, the redeemed.
Women represent churches in Bible prophecy. God told one of the prophets that He considered Israel a "comely and delicate woman". When Israel departed from the Lord, He spoke of her as an unfaithful woman. The women that I believe the 144,000 are not defiled with are Babylon and her harlot daughters. The 144,000 are the redeemed, pure of the influence and defilement of man's false religion. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus: | Quote: | | 1.) Did having sex with a woman defile a man even under the old covenant? |
Yes. When a man raped a woman or took a woman who was married to another man or committed fornication or lusted after another woman (or other women) in his heart.
However, I find the rest of your post intriguing to say the least. I'm going to need to wrap my mind around this a little bit as it needs to sink in. I am a bit thick-headed sometimes, I'll admit.
I went back and re-read your post on the first page and here's what literally 'jumped out' at me:
Rev 7: "14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 21:
"3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
I read the following in Exodus and was stunned at the similarity between the verses in Revelation and Exodus:
Ex 29:
43 And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory.
44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.
God has always desired a good relationship with us. He has always wanted to be close to us and dwell among us.
That just shot out at me like a lightning bolt.
I'm still not completely clear on who make up the 144,000. JW's believe they are it. I believe after listening to you, Zathrus, that it is a fine mixture of people from many different walks of life who love God and Jesus and have the same goal in mind: A good solid loving close relationship with God. I don't think God discriminates against His followers just because of the church they attend or don't attend.
I think I'm going to open this up for more feedback.
Thanks for pointing me back to your original post on this thread, Zathrus. It's given me something to think about.
Luv
Last edited by Luvnlife on Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the kind words, luvnlife. I am glad that my post got you to think about something you hadn't considered.
And thanks for pointing out the passage in Exodus 29. It's a wonderful example of how old testament Israel, and God's dealings with them foreshadowed the church, and God's relationship with us in this new covenant of grace and peace. So much of what we read in te new testament is the writers showing how the promises contained in the old testament were fulfilled in and by Jesus Christ. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1025
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | Rev 7:
"14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
Compare that with this description in Rev 22, commonly accepted as being of we believers in our eternal state:
"3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."
And this passage from Rev 21:
"3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Note Rev 22:4 which I quoted above.
| Quote: | | 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. |
As I mentioned, this is generally understood to be talking about us in our eternal glorified state.
In Rev 14, it says this about the 144,000:
| Quote: | | 1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. |
Hopefully my color coding helped point out that wherever the 144,000 are described, their description matches that of us, the believers in Christ. What the author is showing his 1st century readers is that the church is the true heavenly Israel! It is those who are of faith, bot Jew and Gentile who are the "remnant of Israel" who were faithful to the Lord, without sin and without deception because they believe in Jesus as Messiah. They are the true Israel, and the 144,000.
The figure 144,000 relates to the description of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21. It is described as being "foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
A cube 12,000 furlongs on a side. The area of one face would be 144,000,000 square furlongs.
This city is identified plainly in Rev 21 when the angel said to John "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." He then showed him the New Jerusalem. We all pretty much agree on who the bride of Christ is, right? Sorry, those of you who expect the New Jerusalem to be a literal city that will orbit the earth in space.
The bride of Christ is depicted as a city because Jerusalem in Israel was where the temple was in the old testament, and the temple is where the presence of God Himself dwelt. Now look what He says in Revelation 21:
| Quote: | | "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." |
We believers are where the presence of God now dwells and that is why we are His holy city and His temple. John was writing that God had shown him that the church was the true fulfillment of Jerusalem, God's Holy City, the location of His temple, where His name and His presence dwells! I imagine this would have been a very remarkable and controversial idea in the 1st century! And in our day, it remains a glorious truth! And that is what I have been blessed to discover so far of the 144,000. |
So your answer to luvnlife's first post is:
1) Not all men.
2) Not all virgins.
3) Not all from specific tribes.
But when Tbax says basically the same thing he gets an argument. What's the fine point I'm missing? |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1025
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| RR wrote: | If I may interject on the origina question, the statement “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins” is not to be understood in a literal sense any more than the other symbols described in this chapter. It indicates singleness of purpose in following the Lord. Paul states, “For I have espoused you to one [spiritual] husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ” (2 Cor. 11:2).
Consider the message to the Church of Thyatira, the Lordr rebuked those who “sufferest that woman Jezebel [the Roman Catholic Church], which calleth herself a prophetess [teacher], to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication” (Rev. 2:20). And
in Revelation 17:5 this same religious system, having denominational daughters, is styled the “MOTHER OF HARLOTS.” These are the “women” referred to in verse 4, i.e., the women who cause defilement.
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This is pretty good, RR.
| Quote: |
At what point does this defilement begin? It occurs after the Lord’s people find themselves in such human organizations and the light of truth has penetrated, revealing to them how God’s plan and character are being misrepresented by these women systems. When they hear the Lord’s Word say, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4), it behooves them to respond. If one refuses to obey the light granted by God and the voice of His truth, then defilement of conscience begins at that point. Whoever—for family, social, or financial reasons—holds to that which is built upon a wrong principle traduces the divine character and plan; and if affirmative action is not taken, such a one will prove unworthy of being counted an overcomer and will thus fail to have part in the “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:5). Even though many were in the nominal Church down through the age—even though the wheat and the tares did grow together until the time for separation—the true wheat class has never been in harmony with sectarianism (Matt. 13:24–30,37–43).
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Ok, looks you are not trying to be specific on purpose but you shot this way over our heads. Can you be more specific and down to earth? |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1025
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
| luvnlife wrote: | | I don't have to ask what you think on this one. I'm just glad our judge is less judgmental and more compassionate than I perceive you to be. |
We shall see. God is the one who directed the scriptures I am showing you.
If you are correct then the warnings and the counsel in the scriptures becomes pointless.
Matt 7:20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. But you can follow those apostates if you want to. Right luvnlife?
Toleration is a good thing, but in the extreme degree it preverts justice and become dangerous to you. To tolerate pagan doctrine in "Christianity" is obscene. Apostate religion is not acceptable to God.
2 Thess 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.
The man of lawlessness has been revealed, and it is the clergy of Christendom.  |
That's a good point. Compassion and tolerance do have limits.
Or what's the point of having rules? |
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