There is no trinity

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Since you don't understand the Complex Union of God. I will explain the passage above.

Remember "Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Father, Word (Jesus), Holy Spirit), and the Word (Jesus) was God (Father, Word:Jesus, Holy Spirit)."

That my friend is why God said "let us". No angel helped make man. You sure your not pagan.

It is obvious that you either cant see the truth or don't want to. You don't want to see the Complex Union of God. You don't seem to be able to understand either. I made the claim that there is only one God. There is only one Divine Nature (Father, Word, Holy Spirit) and outside of this their is no god. I see you have nothing to say about the other scriptures I quoted.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;[/i]

As far as this:

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

We can clearly see that Jesus Christ (who is God=the Word) coming before the Ancient of days (who is God= the Father). The Complex Union-Interpretation the Word of God (Jesus) and the Father (Ancient of days).

Second God did not require the aid of angels to create man as you impose the "let us" statement means. That is ridiculous to make such a statement. Man was made in the image of God. Obviously you have not studied with the guidance of the Spirit. Let us is referring to God himself (Father, Word, Holy Spirit).

There are times we read he speaks of me others us.

Psa 2:12 You don't believe God is Complex, here we have the Deity of Christ. God would not allow us to put trust in a mere man or fear the wraith of a mere man. "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. "

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. (quote scriptures right it sould say "the man" =God made flesh!

True he is the mediator between God and man. He is God "made flesh" as the perfect sacrifice one time for all.

1Co 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father,.... In this Christians and Jews agree with the best and wisest philosophers of the Gentiles, that there is but one God; which is clear from the perfections of God, as necessary existence, eternity, infinity, omnipotence, all-sufficiency, goodness, and perfection; from one first cause of all things; from the government of the world; and from the writings of the Old and New Testament: so that to us believers this point is out of all doubt; but who this one God is the Gentiles knew not, and the Jews are very ignorant of; but we Christians know him to be "the Father"; by whom meant either God essentially considered, the one God, Father, Son, and Spirit, called the Father, not in relation to any person in the Godhead, but in relation to the creatures: so this one God, Father, Son, and Spirit, is the Father of spirits, the creator of angels, and the souls of men, the God of all flesh, the Father of all the individuals of human nature, the Father or author of all the mercies and blessings the children of men enjoy. Or else personally considered, and so designs the first person in the Godhead, who is called so in relation to his Son, who is styled the only begotten of the Father: and when he is said to be the one God, it must be understood, not as exclusive of the Son and Spirit; for if the Son stands excluded in this clause from being the one God with the Father, by the same rule of interpretation, the Father, in the next clause must stand excluded from being the one Lord with Christ; but as dominion or lordship belongs to the Father, so deity to the Son, and also to the Spirit.

Of whom are all things; all created beings and things; angels are of him, are created by him, serve and worship him; devils are of him, and under him, and at his control, though they have rebelled against him; all mankind are of him, and are his offspring; the whole universe, the heavens, the earth, and seas, and all that in them are, are of him; all things in nature, providence, grace, and glory, come of him: he is the author of every mercy, temporal and spiritual.

And we in him: or "for him": as creatures we are not only made by him, but live in him, and are supported in him, and by him, and are created for his glory: though this seems rather to respect what believers are, as new creatures; they are in God; they are interested in him as their covenant God, and in his everlasting and immutable love; they are engraven on his hands, and set as a seal on his heart; they are "into him", as it may be rendered; they are brought into nearness to him, and communion with him; and are "for him", are chosen, redeemed, regenerated, and called for the glorifying of his grace, and to show forth his praise.

And one Lord Jesus Christ; so called, not to the exclusion of the Father and Spirit, but in opposition to the lords many before mentioned, and with respect to all his people. Christ is the one Lord of all, as he is God over all, the Creator and Former of all things; and he is so likewise as Mediator, having all power, dominion, and government put into his hands: he is, in a special sense, the one Lord of his people, and that by right of marriage to them; by right of redemption of them; through his being an head unto them, and King of them; and by a voluntary surrender of themselves to him, rejecting all other lords, as sin, Satan, and the world, who have formerly had dominion over them, they acknowledge him to be their one and only Lord:

by whom are all things; in nature; all the created beings of this, or the other world, whether visible or invisible, thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, are by him; no creature was made without him, and all by him; and all things in grace, our election, redemption, reconciliation, pardon, justification, and everlasting glory and happiness,

And we by him; we are redeemed by him from sin, Satan, the law, death, and hell; we are by him what we are, as Christians, as believers in him; by him, and from him, we have all the grace and the supplies of it we have; by him we have access to the Father, and fellowship with him; by him we are governed, influenced, protected, and preserved to his kingdom and glory; and by him we are, and shall be, saved with an everlasting salvation.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mattathias · Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject:

"It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said: ‘In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with God and the Son was God’ (John 1:1). What has happened here is the substitution of the Son for Word (Greek logos), and thereby the Son is made a member of the Godhead which existed from the beginning. But if we follow carefully the thought of John’s prologue, it is the Word that preexisted eternally with God and is God.”

Colin Brown, Ex Auditu (7, 1991)

I think Dr. Brown makes a good point. Seeing a preexistent Jesus or Son in John 1:1 might be reading something into the text that wasn't intended by John.

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

TBax I am starting to realize that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. This is a problem and an untruth.

No created being can ever be I AM. For I AM is God.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I hope you are not part of the pagan JW.

Jesus is Jehovah God, he is the Great I AM

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Angels worship Jesus as God)

Begotten does not mean created either.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

TBax Before you said that God was not speaking in Isaiah 48:16. I told you that God was speaking here so lets read from Isaiah 48:9

Isa 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

also the next verse is clearly the Word of God (Jesus)
Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

Next the Angel of the Lord topic, lets go!

The text may use “God” or “The LORD” interchangeably with “The angel of the LORD” signifying that the “angel” is the Christ [Jesus]. If the one whom the “angel” is worshipped and does not rebuke the man who worships him, that signifies that the “angel” is God.. John is rebuked when he worships an angelic being in Revelation 22:8-9.

More examples of “The angel of The LORD”
Genesis 22:10-15 “The angel of the LORD” speaks to Abraham
(Genesis 31:11-13 “The angel of God” speaks to Jacob)
Genesis 48:15-16 “The angel” is equated with the God of Abraham
Exodus 3:2-21 “The angel of the LORD” appeared to Moses in the bush
**Exodus 13:21-22; 14:19 “The angel of God”/The LORD in a pillar of cloud and fire
Numbers 22:31 “The angel of the LORD” appears to Balaam
Judges 2:1 “The angel of the LORD” that swore a covenant with Israel, and led His people up out of Egypt
Zechariah 3:1-4 “The angel of the LORD” has taken away sin

Put down the pagan cult of JW's. Open your eyes to the scripture and let the Holy Spirit (who is God) lead you to the truth.

Paul2 · Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:52 am Post subject:

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965

BCJ,

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

If a person uses the phrase "I am" he becomes God?

I did not say that at all use logic.

Study the scriptures I gave you to open your understanding. You are not studying the scriptures are you. Note that every verse I put was about the Word of God (Jesus) not a man. So whenever we see the Word of God (Christ) saying "I am" this is God.

Now Jesus is Jehovah (Lord) because Jesus said that no one comes unto the Father (God) but by him. Now Jesus said that before Abraham was I AM. Now put that with this, "Jesus Christ (who is God) the same yesterday today and forever." No mere man can truthfully make such a claim about himself. That means even in the Old Testament men had to go through him. They knew him as who, Jehovah. Exo. 6:2-3, "And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."
You see no man goes unto the Father (who is God) but by him (the Word of God). Notice in the OT the Scriptures says that no man could see God in various Scriptures yet many saw God. Remember that "no man may see my face (the Father) and live."

Also if Jesus is not God then why do angels worship him
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Are you trying to say that Jesus (the Word of God) is, a god? Blasphemy! If you do then that is what makes JW's a pagan cult. There is only one God (Divine Nature) who reveals himself in three persons (Father, Word, Spirit) and these three are one. End of story!

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

Since you think Jesus is Jehovah, please tell me who Jehovah is talking to in vs 44:

Simple Jehovah was talking to Jehovah (in the incarnation of flesh) (In a nut shell one person of the Godhead was talking to another person of the Godhead) just like when he says "Let us". Jesus is the incanation of the Word of God the second person in the "Divine Nature".

Psa_110:1 Said unto my Lord. Instead of לאדני ladoni, “my Lord,” one MS. seems to have read ליהוה layhovah, “Jehovah said unto Jehovah, ‘Sit thou on my right hand,’” etc. See De Rossi.

What are the odds of that?

The Watchtower says if you read the Bible alone, you'll become a Trinitarian.

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." The Watchtower, August 15, 1981.
What are the apostate doctrines of 100 years ago? Why, the Trinity of course.
Obviously, the Watchtower organization tells its members what to believe. From the last quote, we can clearly see that the Bible teaches Trinitarianism, since that is what we would conclude if we simply read the Bible without the Watchtower guiding our thoughts.

Stop reading the New World Translation please. I love you and dont want you mislead. Read the KJV Bible with Hebrew and Greek reference. I suggest the "Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible KJV" God bless.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965

BCJ,

Oh yes. I forgot the fact you beleive there are multiple Jehovahs despite what the Bible actually says. Rolling Eyes

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

As for as "Ye are gods" - This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office (not their human nature), and it shows that the Hebrew word translated “god,” אלהים ̀elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exo_7:1; Exo_4:16.

You said:
Oh yes. I forgot the fact you believe there are multiple Jehovah's despite what the Bible actually says.

The bible shows Jehovah interacting with Jehovah
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (Jehovah) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Jehovah) out of heaven;

God talking to God
Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Now, until you or anyone: Muslim, Onesses Pentecostal, etc can refute these Scriptures your case holds no ground. This combined with the other scriptures I have show clearly paint the grand portrait that God is a Complex Union. End of story!

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

One MS has instead of לאדני ladoni, “my Lord,” one MS. seems to have read ליהוה layhovah, “Jehovah said unto Jehovah, ‘Sit thou on my right hand,’” etc. Some MS. drop the prefix ל le; and read the word in the genitive case, with the Septuagint, Vulgate.

Psa 45:7 we read that God anoints God, clearly at least two persons in the Divine Nature. No other way to explain it.

the text clearly says in Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (Jehovah) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Jehovah) out of heaven. Clearly at least two persons in the Divine Nature. There is no other way to explain this back then or now so stop blowing hot air.

Proof the Complex Union of God.

Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
Zec 2:9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit."

above from Zohar, vol. III, 288, vol. II, 43, Hebrew editions. See also Soncino Press edition, vol. III, 134.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965

BCJ,

Starfield · Newbie Alert Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 1

[quote="BCJ5297"]TBax I am starting to realize that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. This is a problem and an untruth.

No created being can ever be [b][color=red]I AM[/color][/b]. For [b][color=red]I AM [/color][/b]is God.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that [b][color=red]I am [/color][/b]he, ye shall die in your sins.

I hope you are not part of the pagan JW.

Jesus is Jehovah God, he is the Great [color=red]I AM [/color]

Rev 1:18 [b][color=red]I am [/color][/b]he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, [b][color=red]I am [/color][/b]alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. [b][color=red]I am [/color][/b]Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:13 [b][color=red]I am [/color][/b]Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Angels worship Jesus as God)

Begotten does not mean created either.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard [color=red]the voice of the Lord, saying[/color], Whom shall I send, and [color=red]who will go for us?[/color] Then said I, Here am I; send me.

TBax Before you said that God was not speaking in Isaiah 48:16. I told you that God was speaking here so lets read from Isaiah 48:9

Isa 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and [b]I will not give my glory unto another.[/b]

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; [b][color=red]I am [/color]he; [color=red]I am [/color]the first, I also am the last[/b].

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now [b]the Lord GOD, and his Spirit[/b], hath sent me.

also the next verse is clearly the Word of God (Jesus)
Isa 48:17 [b]Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; [color=red]I am [/color]the LORD thy God [/b]which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

Next the Angel of the Lord topic, lets go!

The text may use “God” or “The LORD” interchangeably with “The angel of the LORD” signifying that the “angel” is the Christ [Jesus]. If the one whom the “angel” is worshipped and does not rebuke the man who worships him, that signifies that the “angel” is God.. John is rebuked when he worships an angelic being in Revelation 22:8-9.

More examples of “The angel of The LORD”
Genesis 22:10-15 “The angel of the LORD” speaks to Abraham
(Genesis 31:11-13 “The angel of God” speaks to Jacob)
Genesis 48:15-16 “The angel” is equated with the God of Abraham
Exodus 3:2-21 “The angel of the LORD” appeared to Moses in the bush
**Exodus 13:21-22; 14:19 “The angel of God”/The LORD in a pillar of cloud and fire
Numbers 22:31 “The angel of the LORD” appears to Balaam
Judges 2:1 “The angel of the LORD” that swore a covenant with Israel, and led His people up out of Egypt
Zechariah 3:1-4 “The angel of the LORD” has taken away sin

Put down the pagan cult of JW's. Open your eyes to the scripture and let the Holy Spirit (who is God) lead you to the truth.[/quote]

Dear,
I AM isn't a name in the Bible, and never applied to God.
This theory is based on a wrong reading of Exo 3.
Some points to point:
1) It is incorrect translate the imperfect state of the Hebrew verb (to be) in those verses with a present tense.
It is better translate with a tense that implied the understanding of an action not concluded yet ("I will be what I will be", or similar).
2) If I AM was a name for God so we may re-formulate the classic (but wrong) sentence in this way:
"I AM what I AM" becomes "God what God" Shocked

Do you see any sense in it?

Greeetings.