CHOICE AND OR CHOSEN

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 538

JimD,
Interesting post. Just out of curiosity, where did you get you definitions from? I would like to review them.

I agree with your break down on chosen. However, there are some texts that make it clear that they were chosen unto salvation. Those are the texts that Calvinist use to support what they believe. I think that your thoughts here might help.

Ephesians 1:4 is undeniably God Choosing people for salvation.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.

JimD Thanks for the post.

JB

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 538

JimD,
Let me investigate Corporate election and I will get back to you.

JB

45degreeN · Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:46 am Post subject:

Part of this issue not yet written about: is the will of God to be fulfilled?.

Can God set His will and have it come back void?

Can He choose someone and not bring this person to salvation? Why would He do this in the first place knowing they wouldn't make it all the way even with His help? God is all wise He knows ahead of time what will happen and yet HE can allow an object of His love to falter halfway through without lifting this person up again?

God is capable of saving someone from the depths of Hell if he chooses so what can stop Him from saving everyone He chooses. The way is already made for Him to do this and God is not weakened by us in any way.

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 538

45degreeN

You asked:
Can God set His will and have it come back void?

Revelation 3:20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. God doesn't go into the home of one who isn't ready to receive Him. That is clear in this text.

So the question isn't the will of God but rather the nature and plan of God which seems to be ignored in the Calvinist camp. He knocks not pounds. He waits not enters.

God Bless

JB

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:

Maybe that's the difference between called and chosen..

God chose Pharaoh to use him as an example for those who oppose his Spirit.
God chose Paul to use him as an example of how God's mercy is used to change one from the devils seed to his own seed.

Maybe the chosen are those who are called according to show God's plan.
Jesus Chose Judas out of the 12 to fulfill his will.

But the called could be those who come willingly..not needing to be made ino examples, because he already choe who those examples would be from the foundation of the world.

God Chose David to show us that even when we sin, God still loves us and considers us the apple of his eye.

And so through these chosen we are called to see and hear the plan of salvation God has already shown us by those examples he has chosen to be as his witnesses to us.

in this verse here:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but G1161 few are chosen.

I looked at the greek word for but and it says:

G1161
δέ
de
deh
A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].

so but doesn't necessarily mean that they are exclusive out of the many..it could mean and out of the many few are chosen..or, many are called and/also chosen..

many are called and now chosen..many are called and moreover chosen..

But 'm looking in the context of how it says:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and on the face of it, it is true..but then we see what happens to those who are ordained to this condemnation, and are ungodly, and denying the Lord..

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

the same is said of Pharaoh:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

So many are called (and/also/moreover/now) few are chosen..
why does it have to be "but"?

If many are called "but" few are chosen, how is it a whole generation was chosen..is that a few? and for what purpose were they chosen?

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

so then we can see this verse being fulfilled from this verse:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

see the plan?

I believe Pharoah is a "type" or "shadow" of Paul.
And that as Pharoah set out to slay all the firstborn, Saul set out to slay the new church.
And as Pharaoh and those who were chosen of him died in the "sea", so Saul and those who were with him perished, that is Saul perished..when he was led to "see".

And he was blinded and led to his enemies and his enemies showed mercy on him, and gave him back his sight. And Saul was perished in the "seeing" that is in the "understanding" of the Word. And so Saul died and Paul rose from the dead.

And so has Pharaoh..because the generation which was brought out of darkness which were not a people are the very people God destroyed in Egypt on the night of passover. He claimed all of Pharaohs firstborn for his own sacrifice.. and God raised them up as the firstfruits of his Glory. To show us the plan.

Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Act 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
Act 4:22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.
Act 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Jesus chose just plain ordinary sinners. A liar, a thief, a taxcollector, 2 brothers greed and lust, thomas was under a tree..maybe he was an idolater who knows..all we know is that these guys were not perfect. And God took what appeared to be the scum of the earth and cleaned them up and raised them up through his mercy and for his glory..so he could show the world what an AWESOME and Wonderful Amazing God we truly have!

And this is the plan..
that he is able to take anyone and anything no matter how foul or evil or scummy and unclean, and take them and make new people for himself.
And this is his will. And who can oppose it?
Because we don't "see" it, should we stop "believing" it?
But we have seen, and we have witnessed the very beginning of this plan manifested in those who had the witness in themselves. And we too share this witness in ourselves. That we are not the same as we were before we first believed.

And so God's plan is still being fulfilled today.
Watch and "See".. Wink

hugs
lone

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 538

bobf

The prophecy of this chapter seems to relate (as that in the foregoing chapter) to the approaching danger of Jerusalem and desolations of Judah by Sennacherib’s invasion. Here is, I. A just reproof to those who, in that distress, trusted to the Egyptians for help, and were all in a hurry to fetch succors from Egypt (v. 1-7). II. A terrible threatening against those who slighted the good advice which God by his prophets gave them for the repose of their minds in that distress, assuring them that whatever became of others the judgment would certainly overtake them (v. 8–17). III. A gracious promise to those who trusted in God, that they should not only see through the trouble, but should see happy days after it, times of joy and reformation, plenty of the means of grace, and therewith plenty of outward good things and increasing joys and triumphs (v. 18–26), and many of these promises are very applicable to gospel grace. IV. A prophecy of the total rout and ruin of the Assyrian army, which should be an occasion of great joy and an introduction to those happy times (v. 27–33).

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but here is some construct for this text. There seems to be hope coming for Israel in this text at a future time.

JB

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 538

Bobf,
Thanks for your post.

I agree with you that the Old testament is filled with typologies. I also agree that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Interestingly enough I also agree that God is an interventionist.

I believe that where the difference lies is how we arrive at that intervention.

I will post later. Have a emergency

JB

45degreeN · Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject:

The Latin Word for the Church ecclesia (out called ones) come from the public announcers that would broadcast the news by walking through the neighborhoods and calling out the various victories and whatnot .

Those people making the calls made them to anyone who could hear and no one in particular. Like casting seeds in a field. The people who cared about the news would go to some victory feast down town if they wanted.

As listeners to the "God's spiel" (gospel) we do care and take joy in the fact that our redemption is paid now. The church consists in the gathering of those listeners who gathered for the feast.

JB · Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 538

45DegreeN,

Again I agree with you. The question is , "what make one care about the news and another doesn't care?"

JB

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject:

Romans · Goldfish Joined: 09 Jun 2008 Posts: 56

Chosen, Elect.

Websters Dictionary: SELECTED OR MARKED FOR FAVOR OR TO RECEIVE SPECIAL PRIVILEGE. ONE WHO IS THE OBJECT OF CHOICE OR OF DIVINE FAVOR: AN ELECTED PERSON

DEUTURONOMY 7:6, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, the Lord your God has CHOSEN you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Israel was elect.

MATTHEW 24: 22, "Unless those days be cut short, no life would have been saved. , But for the sake of the ELECT, THE CHOSEN, those days shall be cut short." Who are the elect? The believers. Verse 24, "False Christs, false prophets will arise, will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the ELECT, THE CHOSEN, the believers." It is a term for believers, for Christians verse
31, "When He sends forth His angels with a great trumpet at the Second Coming, they will gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

LUKE 18:7 says, "Now shall not God bring about justice for HIS ELECT who cry to Him day and night and will He delay long over them?"

ROMANS 8:33 "Who shall bring a charge against GOD'S ELECT?"

COLOSSIANS 3:12, "And so as those who have been ELECT OF GOD, (CHOSEN OF GOD) , holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion," and so forth. You've been CHOSEN OF GOD to be holy and beloved. He determined to set His love on you and me for no reason of ours at all, but strictly of His own free choice. The elect of God, that's who we are.

2 TIMOTHY 2:10, "For this reason, Paul says, I endure all things in my ministry for the sake of those who are CHOSEN that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus." I am doing my evangelistic ministry to bring the gospel to the ELECT...the chosen. Titus, when Paul writes that letter he couldn't say it anymore straight-forward. "Paul, a bond servant of God and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those CHOSEN OF GOD."

2 JOHN, describes the church as the chosen lady, the elect lady, 2 John 1; 2 John 13, the children of your CHOSEN sister greet you. Two churches, both elect.

PETER says, "You are a CHOSEN race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession." You are a chosen race. You are a Christian because you are chosen to be one by God.

ACTS 15:14, "Simeon, or Peter, has related how...this is the Council of Jerusalem...how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME." God's whole plan is to take out a people, to choose a people.

MATTHEW chapter 20 You have a parable here, the Kingdom of Heaven, like a land owner, went out in the morning to hire labors for his vineyard. He agreed with the laborers for a denarius, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out the third hour, saw others standing idle in the marketplace, went through the process, hired them....hired them...hired them...hired them. Selected them, the whole parable all the way down to the bottom, he picked out who he wanted and he rewarded them with eternal life, that's the essence of the parable. Very simple. He selected them. Called them into his service. Sent them out to serve. Rewarded them fairly, faithfully, generously. That is a picture of election.

JOHN 15, Jesus said it to His disciples, "You did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give it you." You didn't choose Me, I chose you.

JOHN 17:9, He says of Christians, praying to the Father does our Lord, "I ask on their behalf," this is the high priestly prayer of Christ, "I do not ask on behalf of the world but of those whom Thou hast given Me." The Father chose us and gave us to Christ as a love gift, for they are Thine.

ACTS chapter 13: 48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, that is the gospel message, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." The chosen believed. Those appointed to eternal life believed.

ROMANS 9:14. God is talking about choosing. He says, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." God made His choice. Verse 14, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God is there? May it never be." Me gennetos, in the Greek, no, no, no. It's...it's not injustice, for He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," which is to say I will do precisely what I want to do. Verse 16, look at this, "So then it, salvation, does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy." Sovereign mercy. And somebody in verse 19 says, "Well then how can He find fault, For who will resist his will?

ROMANS 11: 5, "In the same way then as in the case of the prophet Elijah and seven thousand men who didn't bow the knee to Baal, in the same way then there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's choice." God's choice.

1 CORINTHIANS 1: 9, "God is faithful through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son." Your salvation was a direct work of God. He called you into fellowship with His Son.

EPHESIANS 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world." When did it happen? When were we chosen? Before we were born. Before anybody was born. Before there was a world we were chosen.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:4. "We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayer, I look at your life and I see...in verse 3...your work of faith, your labor of love, your steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren, beloved by God His choice of you."

2 THESSALONIANS 2 :13, "We should always give thanks to God for you, we shouldn't thank you, we should thank God, "Brethren, beloved by the Lord." Isn't that good? "Because God has chosen you from the beginning."

2 TIMOTHY 1:9, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and gace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

2 TIMOTHY 2:10 , Paul says, "In my ministry I endure all things," "For the sake of those whose name has been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain."

REVELATION 17: 8, "And those who dwell on the earth will wonder whose name has not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." And again we are told in a backhanded way that Christians are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from beginning, from eternity, from the foundation of the world.

REVELATION 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, that is the host of the Antichrist, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." We're the chosen.

REVELATION 20, Final judgment, Great White Throne, "If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life he was...what?...thrown in the lake of fire." When were names put in the book? From before the foundation of the earth.

ROMANS 11:33 the Apostle writes, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways for who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has become His counselor?" You've stepped out of bounds when you say that God does anything that isn't fair.

What is clear from scripture is that God CHOSE us.....He DRAWS us John 6:44.....He SAVES us......He KEEPS us. Our job and free will comes into play when we love him and obey him. What he has done for us and TO us has nothing to do with our FREE WILL but WHO he is and his CHARACTER. Not Us