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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate,
I understand what you are now claiming about that quote.
Do you believe it is reasonable that I should have understood what you are currently saying from what you actually said originally?
The next progressive question was unanswered.
Now do you believe Jesus is one of those forms of God?
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I do feel it is reasonable. When I have explained completely, we can read through my posts again together, and if I have been unclear, I will be glad to learn.
Sorry, I forgot about the Jesus question. The answer is "Yes, Jesus is one form of God's expression of himself." The fullness of the Godhead is expressed bodily in Him. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate,
| Vibrate wrote: | | Yes, I do feel it is reasonable. |
Sorry. I disagree.
I don't believe your explanations are reasonable conclusions that I should have drawn from your original quote. 
| Vibrate wrote: | | The answer is "Yes, Jesus is one form of God's expression of himself." |
Who did Jesus pray to? Do you believe Jesus was like a puppet of God's, or do you believe Jesus is a seperate person from the Father? |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sorry. I disagree. I don't believe your explanations are reasonable conclusions that I should have drawn from your original quote. |
It's quite obvious that you disagree. But you asked, so I answered. Can we move on now? Like I said, once we have cleared up the points, we can reapproach that question.
| Quote: |
Who did Jesus pray to? Do you believe Jesus was like a puppet of God's, or do you believe Jesus is a seperate person from the Father? |
He prayed to the Father. I do not believe that Jesus is a puppet of God's. I do not believe that he is a separate person from the Father. Have I answered all questions clearly?
All of these issues are dealt with by the concept of the distinction between finite and infinite approaches to understanding. Now I have answered your questions, and I hope it is becoming clearer. Can you answer mine? Here it is:
What did I explain to be the difference between finite and infinite logic, and why did I make this point about there being two different approaches. What conclusion did I come to using this point that there are two approaches? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate,
| Vibrate wrote: | | He prayed to the Father. I do not believe that Jesus is a puppet of God's. I do not believe that he is a separate person from the Father. Have I answered all questions clearly? |
Yes. You answered clearly, but your answer seems to contradict itself, and the scriptures.
When Jesus was born on earth, where was God?
Luke 2:14 “Glory in the heights above to God, and upon earth peace among men of goodwill.”
If Jesus is God, why did he need to approach God to offer the value of his sacrifice?
Heb 9:24 For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.
Who approached God here? Is God appearing before Himself? Did God at His own right hand?
| Vibrate wrote: | | What did I explain to be the difference between finite and infinite logic, and why did I make this point about there being two different approaches. |
As you know, you speak in riddles to me.
I cannot answer as I don't recall you talking about finite logic as opposed to infinite logic. Please direct me to the post where this was discussed. |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I cannot answer as I don't recall you talking about finite logic as opposed to infinite logic. Please direct me to the post where this was discussed. |
Well, instead of looking back right now let me just explain it here. The difference between finite and infinite logic explains the apparent contradictions, which you mention here:
| Quote: | | You answered clearly, but your answer seems to contradict itself, and the scriptures. |
According to finite thinking, any number added to itself adds up to twice as much. But infinity added to itself comes up to the same amount - infinity. So finite principles of logic do not hold with infinite cases.
separateness. Using the finite concept, there is a rule that if two entities are separate
You have raised several examples, which according to finite logic, would indicate that Jesus and God were separate entities. You show that Jesus prayed to God; you show that Jesus submitted himself to God. You could have also showed that Jesus said he does not have the authority to say who will sit next to him, but only God has that authority. You could have also showed that Jesus said no man knows the hour, not the son or the angels, but only the father.
According to finite thinking, each of these scenarios would indicate separateness. If Jesus prays to God, in finite logic it is obvious that they are separate. If Jesus submits to God, in finite logic it is obvious that they are separate; and so on and so forth. According to finite logic, each of the examples above, and hundreds of others in the bible would indicate that Jesus and God were separate.
But the fact that Jesus and God are not separate, distinct beings is a fact that does not belong to the realm of finite logic. So the rules of finite logic do not apply. Just like how infinity plus itself is infinity, contrary to the rules of finite logic, Jesus prays to God, although they are not separate (even though this scenario would contradict finite logic).
I understand that the above is not a proof that Jesus and God are not separate. Please do not say that I am calling the above a proof or a demonstration. I am simply making a point. My point is that all of your arguments against the trinity are based on finite logic, and that there is more in the universe than just finite logic.
If you are willing to consider the possibility of a larger view, we can continue. I don't want to say too much at once, and get confusing again. Do you at least understand what I have explained in this post? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Vibrate,
| Vibrate wrote: | | According to finite thinking, any number added to itself adds up to twice as much. But infinity added to itself comes up to the same amount - infinity. So finite principles of logic do not hold with infinite cases. |
Actually, that conclusion is according to finite logic principles because of what infinity means.
Basically, all you are saying, is when dealing with God logic is voided. Meaning, once again, you can say anything you want and say it is possible because God is infinite. 
The fact is, God used our words to communicate what he wants us to know. You are using your misguided "infinite logic" as a reason to deny what His word actually says.
Believe me, I understand what you have said. I see right through it. It is a ruse to believe whatever you choose to without having to back it up with scripture.
If the scriptures are to set things straight, how can that be true if words don't mean what they say? 
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight,
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I have answered your questions, even though I feel that I have dealt with them before, and that they are obvious. Why can't you do the same for me?
You say, "believe you, you understand". Can't you help me to believe you, by showing that you understand? Basically I played my part in the conversation, and now when it's your turn you have just cut me off by refusing to play your part. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1096
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | | You are absolutely correct Ana. Jesus is not God, never claimed to be God. This is definately something to be passionate about. This is a church teaching which is not in any way according to the Bible. |
While I agree with you and there are many scriptures that support what you are saying there are also verses that support the Trinitarian viewpoint.
The most quoted one is the following verse:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
How do you explain this verse?
Luv |
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Paul2
Big Goldfish
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | | Jesus is not God, never claimed to be God. This is definately something to be passionate about. This is a church teaching which is not in any way according to the Bible. |
I agree.
Trinitarians often quote the following translation of Isaiah 9:6 to support their assertion that Jesus is God :
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
According to the Athanasian creed, there are three persons in the "Trinity":
"Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being. For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another."
To say that the Son is the Father is "confusing the persons" and is therefore violating the creed which states: "Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith. Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally."
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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The eternal Father:
Our first father, Adam, lost everlasting life for us. Jesus bought it back with his sacrifice. Jesus is called the last Adam. A father gives life. Jesus gives everlasting life. In this sense he is our everlasting father.
Not to be confused with Jesus' and our God and Father, The Father, who is God, Jehovah. 
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | According to the Athanasian creed, there are three persons in the "Trinity":
"Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being. For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another."
To say that the Son is the Father is "confusing the persons" and is therefore violating the creed which states: "Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith. Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally." |
I agree.
Is it possible that this whole issue is just us arguing over semantics, even though we agree on the central point? I didn't say Jesus is the Father; I said He is God. I did not mean that He is the Father. Same for the Holy Spirit.
Could it be that we are arguing like Bill Clinton, over the meaning of the word "is"? |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5017
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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I don't believe you will ever hear a Trinitarians say that Jesus is the Father! It's God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Ghost.
Nobby |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1096
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | The eternal Father:
Our first father, Adam, lost everlasting life for us. Jesus bought it back with his sacrifice. Jesus is called the last Adam. A father gives life. Jesus gives everlasting life. In this sense he is our everlasting father.
Not to be confused with Jesus' and our God and Father, The Father, who is God, Jehovah.
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What about where the scripture says "The mighty God?"
Luv |
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Paul2
Big Goldfish
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | I don't believe you will ever hear a Trinitarians say that Jesus is the Father! |
If a Trinitarian is one who strictly adheres to the Athanasian creed, I believe you are right.
| Nobby wrote: | | It's God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Ghost. |
My God won't place you in everlasting torment, if you are wrong.
Ro 1:7 ...Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1C 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2C 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ga 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:2 ...Grace to you and peace from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 1:1 ...Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 1:2 ...Grace, mercy, peace, from God, our Father, and Christ Jesus, our Lord.
2Ti 1:2 ...Grace, mercy, peace, from God, the Father, and Christ Jesus, our Lord.
Tt 1:4 ...Grace and peace from God, the Father, and Christ Jesus, our Saviour.
Phm 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father...
Paul |
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