 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
|
 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Lone 
Let me ask you a question, if you will?
If my "inner witness" disagrees with your "inner witness", which one is right?
Say five people claim to have an "inner witness" that all disagrees, is God the author of confusion, is He a liar, telling one person one thing and another another?
Or is God a liar when He says there are "absolutes", when He express "absolutes"?
Or is man correct when He says there are NO absolutes?
I believe fully that we should be led by the Spirit.
But I also know that the scripture is the test that I apply to the "spirits".
Would you agree that there are evil angels in this world?
If so, how do we know that Yehushuan for instance is not led by one of them (the reason I challenged him)?
How do we know?
Easy really.
We compare that persons claims, spirit and arguments against the Word of God.
If they disagree, one gets thrown out.
Most gnostics/spiritualists etc always want to throw the Bible out when it disagrees with their viewpoint...
Funny that, don't you think?
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
Roster
Little Guppy
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 33
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mtimber,
This is my opinion on inner witnesses/feelings. I believe all individuals have an inner feeling of some kind of Energy/Creator that they feel. I choose to believe that their has to be something behind this extreme intelligent design, and I believe that the Spirit/Energy, what ever it is He,She or just Spirit, is God. The reason I say this is because their are a lot of books and myths that tell of our creation. I personally have no proof at all of an existence of a God except the order and harmony of the Universe since the beginning of it's creation, and that makes me believe in God.
I believe all the major religions to be for the most part morally right. I don't reject the bible, but also don't believe that people should take it so seriously simply because of the diversity (prideful, traditional, interpretation). I believe that everyone should listen to their inner self (heart) and that be the primary judge of their actions. As I said, everyone should listen to THEIR inner self and not force it on anyone else no matter what religion they decide. Thats the beauty of everybody being different. 
The question was asked "who's inner self would be right"? They are both right to each of you because they are your opinions and make sense to you. Lets omit the question and apply Jesus's best phrase "Treat others the way you want to be treated". With us applying this, realizing the beauty of the world and creation, and enjoying it, that in MY OPINION is worship to God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello Roster
Let me ask you a question of you do not mind?
What if there is ONE true way.
What if there is an ABSOLUTE path to the throne of God.
Is that a possibility?
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it's OK, I'd like to address a couple of things that were said here. I know these statements were not addressed to me, but I'd like to comment on the principles involved. | mtimber wrote: | Would you agree that there are evil angels in this world?
If so, how do we know that Yehushuan for instance is not led by one of them (the reason I challenged him)?
How do we know?
Easy really.
We compare that persons claims, spirit and arguments against the Word of God.
If they disagree, one gets thrown out. |
By this rule, Yehu does not come out looking too bad. None can deny that he's done his homework. Well versed in scripture, and has gone so far as to study the new testament in Greek to get the true intent of what was written. He's done his homework far better than any of us here.
Your contention with him is that he maintains that the sole arbiter and ultimate rule of truth in the church should not be a written text or cannon but a relationship with the risen and living Lord, speaking to us and communing with us by His Spirit. It would seem that you are seeking to use this as leverage to disprove other doctrinal beliefs. Prove him a herectic on the point of divine inspiration and you can throw out anything he has said.
| mtimber wrote: | Most gnostics/spiritualists etc always want to throw the Bible out when it disagrees with their viewpoint...
Funny that, don't you think? |
I think it is funny that by this rule, Adventism is placed squarely in the camp of gnostics/spiritualists etc. While claiming to believe all of the Bible, these boards are full of examples of scriptures and principles taught in scripture that Adventists simply refuse to acknowlege, or wrest the plain meaning of to suit their viewpoint.
A few more points:
I think it is interesting that it is possible for someone who trusts in the relationship he/she has with the risen and living Lord to have a heart for God and a right spirit, while one who is immersed in scripture, has memorized large numbers of verses and quotes them gratuitously (maybe favoring certain pet verses), to have a heart that does not have the love of God, does not care for others enough to so much as to be willing to understand them, because it is so much more important to them to be right about everything.
And lastly, do not even you Adventists teach that God reveals His truth to you by His Spirit? You introduce your teaching by presenting the 10 commandments and pointing out how we in the "Christian world" are failing to fully keep them because many of us attend church on Sunday. But you and other Adventist friends on these boards have admitted that it is not just the Big 10, but all commandments given to Moses and old covenant Israel, that Christians are responsible to keep, with the exceptions being those that require animal sacrifice or Levitical priests. When asked about whether you personally are keeping all these commands, the answer I've received from Adventists is along the lines that you're keeping more of them as God quickens or gives revelation of them to your heart. Sort of a progressively quickened rhema word spoken to each Adventist by the Spirit of God. A twisted idea in my view, but nonetheless you Adventists are admitting to ignoring the written Word and going by what God personally speaks to you. And this transgression is far worse than what you accuse any alleged Gnostic of since this would mean Adventists are outright disobeying commands of God which they've read and know are in their Bibles, waiting for a feeling or "impression" to move them to obedience.
It hardly seems like anyone in the Adventist organization has grounds to accuse anyone of being a spiritualist or gnostic.
Last edited by Zathrus on Sat May 10, 2008 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roster
Little Guppy
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 33
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mtimber,
Yes, it is definitely possible for there to be only ONE TRUE WAY, just as it could be possible that we were created by aliens. The reason I say that is because all imaginations of the mind can be a possibility but that doesn't mean that they are true. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Zathrus...
You constantly make such bold strong claims against Adventist Christians and their beliefs.
Now have you for instance yet figured out the issues over Jesus coming (as you believe) back in AD70?
When it is still pointed out as a future event in a book written after AD70?
And that Heaven and Earth are still here?
I do not know if you have resolved this most basic problem with your own doctrine, if you have not, do you think you should point your fingers at others?
If you can be blind to such a simple problem my friend, how can you be clearminded enough to see anything different to your own cherished beliefs?
I ask this with a loving incredulosity
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mtimber wrote: | Zathrus...
You constantly make such bold strong claims against Adventist Christians and their beliefs. |
Such as what? If you're referring to things I said in my last post dated May 9, some of the points I made in that post are simply things you and other Adventists have said yourselves.
A couple of others are my perceptions admittedly, but we are all entitled to those, and I don't think mine are without basis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You are still skipping the question Zathrus
You have never answered that point.
Why is that my friend?
You say that we SDA's misrepresent and twist scripture, but you have never dealt with this very big fundamental flaw in your own doctrinal position on this forum.
You have refused under many reasons to nail this down, so your questioning of other doctrinal positions that are outside of your own belief systems have to be taken in that light.
Holding a clear error blinds one to the truth.
Jesus did not come in AD70 in any form, the heavens and the earth have not passed away.
Yet still we have no answer to some solid arguments against this position you support.
You are casting stones at others from a fortress built out of sand.
Not a good position.
This is why I have trouble taking your viewpoints seriously as they come from a fundamently flawed foundation.
What other choice do I have, when this simple question has never been dealt with?
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Because Zathrus, your whole position that the Law (Ten Commandments) have no relevance is based on this fundamental flaw.
Jesus said that the Law would not be done away with until heaven and earth have passed away (vague paraphrase).
Your only argument to this is that AD70 was when Heaven and Earth passed away...
I post this with heaviness of heart.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My sympathies for the heaviness of your heart. 
When did this become a thread on preterism and the 70AD parousia of Christ? As you tried with Yehu, you seek to find one area of study in which I differ with mainstream Christianity, and if I can be labeled a heretic in that area, you can throw our anything I say.
Our topic of discussion is Gnosticism, the characteristics of it, and the identification of Gnostic Christians. By the identifiers you have given us, I have shown how you and your Adventist friends would easily qualify as Gnostic Christians. Your only response has been to try to poke a hole in a belief of mine in another area of study only tangentially related to our topic of discussion.
I think this discussion would be better benefitted if you concerned yourself with proving that you are not a Gnostic believer by the identifiers which you yourself listed.
And as for covenant eschatology and an AD 70 parousia of Christ and passing away of the law, I recall an occasion on which I bumped 2 or 3 threads back to the top from previous pages to jog our memory as to the fact that we have discussed it at length, I have provided ample scriptural proof, and you have dismissed and refused to acknowlege all of it. Do I need to find them again for you? Such refusal to acknowlege the words of the Bible (unless of course the scripture that is presented gives you a spiritual impression which resonates sympathetically with what you consider to be the "truth") only serves to show how you meet identifying features numbers 2 and 3 of a Gnostic believer.
So now that this discussin is back on topic, can you tell us on what basis I should not consider you a Gnostic believer? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sorry Mark just saw this:
| Quote: | Lone
Let me ask you a question, if you will?
If my "inner witness" disagrees with your "inner witness", which one is right? |
Well, that's when we're supposed to find witnesses to judge between us to see which one is true. But then we would need at least two if not three to verify it.But then we are told not to judge, so I would be surprised if there were many volunteers. (or maybe not..  )
| Quote: | I believe fully that we should be led by the Spirit.
But I also know that the scripture is the test that I apply to the "spirits".
Would you agree that there are evil angels in this world? |
If you believe fully that you are, then you are and not should be.
It's the fruit that we know by. They are the witness.
Only those who are in high authority and rule the people by their own corrupt powers.
| Quote: | | If so, how do we know that Yehushuan for instance is not led by one of them (the reason I challenged him)? |
And you want me to judge Yehu..
Or the spirit in Yehu..
You know..that's funny.
I won't judge Yehu..you know why? because I'm not a judge and Yehu isn't under the law.
That's up to God to judge him, not I.
My job is to love him as my neighbour and as myself, the very same way I love you and don't judge you.
I know we all are coming from different places all the time. And eventually everyone will end up on the same path. Because friend..there is only one path and God made it and set it in the foundation. And though it may seem we wander off path, it's God who is directing it continually, to do his will for his good pleasure, so in time everything will be just as he says it will be.
So everyone has their own path to walk, everyone has their own cross to bear, everyone has their own heart to watch after. And everyone who has the spirit knows they have it..because they reap the benefits and the rewards...and they are sweet.
And yes the bible says this, but the witness of the truth is in myself that it is true.
My inner witness says I have cast off the old man and I now walk in the new man. And I am under God's grace and mercy and forgiveness which had been ommitted from the law.
And so God disannulled that covenant with Israel and he began a new one and he sealed it with his own blood.
And now I walk under the new covenant of God's law which is spiritual and takes root in my heart, cleanses my mind, and creates in me a new spirit after his kind.
And he is the tree of life and the spirit of that tree bears fruit. And we shall know if we walk in his spirit or not if we bear his fruit.
Now, you judge..
and see for yourself whether you be bearing his fruit in your heart and then you will know, and will not need any man to tell you so. Just as I need no man to tell me so, Just like Yehu will have to determine in his own heart the fruits he bears..
see, it's our own conscience which bears us witness whether we are true to him or not.
And each one will reap however he has sown.
Are you unhappy, then you must be sowing unhappy seed in order to reap unhappy fruit.
Are you joyful, then you must be sowing seeds of joy in order to reap joyful fruit..
So this is how you know whether you are in the spirit or not, by what fruits you reap..because that shows what kind of seeds your sowing.
Do you feel a need to judge? then you are sowing judging seeds.
And you will reap judgment upon yourself. And your reward will be your own condemnation of you own self.
Nobody has to do it to you, we do it to ourselves..all the time.
it's really quite simple.
And this was how the law was supposed to work. By keeping an eye on our own vineyard instead of worrying about everyone elses..see?
Sgs 1:6 Look not upon me, because I [am] black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; [but] mine own vineyard have I not kept.
And now we are at liberty to keep our own vineyards and make sure they grow healthy and fruitful so we can feed eachother and not starve the world.
God Bless
Lone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
