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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes of course there are more important things than material things, still it is hard to avoid dealing with them and why philosophical idealism is such a perverse way of thinking. |
Well you're right. Philosophical idealism is false, and it ends up neglecting the practical realities of life. It is impossible to avoid dealing with the practical reality. But what I'm talking about is not a philosophy. Philosophy deals with an intellectual construct, but I am talking about the word of God, which cuts into every part of human life. Please understand that political theory is not merely an abstract philosophy, but it involves a practical reality. It is practically true that God created us to be politically free, and that by living the Way we can achieve this. God also wants us to be materially free (for example, financially free, and free from sickness). God does want us to be philosophically free as well, in the sense that one with knowledge is not afraid, or doubtful. But we have the confidence of knowing that we know what we know.
| Quote: | | I really dont buy the old saw about the evil people missing sleep at night mostly they just don't care about others so it just doesn't bother them at all. God gives them over to their deceiving lusts and they sleep well whether or not we think otherwise. |
You're missing my point. I'm not looking at things from a worldly perspective, to say that it will work out bad for them. I'm saying that they lose out on the things that they ignore - the peace that Jesus talks about. They lose out on a living hope, and a relationship with God. Even a life of bliss, health, and material wealth is worthless when you don't have love in your heart, and confidence, and a living hope. Would you begrudge a dog his life of ease? He's a dog. So what if he goes unpunished, as far as material things? The worst punishment is being cut off from God. It is a life without meaning.
Knowledge of God gives our lives purpose, and direction. A sense of yourself, and confidence as a person. It is impossible for an unbeliever to have these things. That is my point. So if you look at it this way, you'll see what I mean by saying that they don't sleep well, and can't enjoy their wealth. Sure they can experience physical enjoyment, but it is the Holy Spirit that makes things really enjoyable. The value of physical enjoyment like food, and sleep are in the giving of thanks, and communion with God - not in the physical experience. Of course food tastes good, but that is minor in the grand scheme of things. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate wrote | Quote: | | It is practically true that God created us to be politically free, |
Where did you ever get this gem from? Can I disagree with this more, no! Humans are never: good or successful or anything positive without the controlling interest of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We will never be totally controlled by this Holy Spirit until we make it to heaven, whatever we might have here on Earth is a mere shadow of that eventuality.
The "real governance system" you offered to us is just a "shadow" of what is real, not the real thing and will not ever exist as a means of governing humans while we are fallen creatures here on Earth. No, God 'allows' multiple methods of governance here on Earth so that we humans can have something to compare with when we get into those heavenly realms. They are not false in any sense of the word false. They are very real. Jesus did in fact say render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, which include political issues. The Earthly methods of governance while un-Godly/worldly are just that, humans offering to humans what we think is right.
In democratic countries humans make multiple compromises but God will never compromise when it comes to defining righteousness. God is an absolute Monarch when it comes to governing heaven and ultimately the universe.
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1015
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | Where did you ever get this gem from? |
Hi 45, vibrate. Long time no see, 45. This idea that God wants us to be politically free seems to have been floating around for a while. It has been a recurring theme in GWB's speeches. He used the idea in a speech several years ago, and apparently used it again yesterday in a speech. Google "God's gift of freedom."
It's not my cup of tea of course. 
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the response. Seems you're missing my point completely. I said:
| Quote: | | It is practically true that God created us to be politically free, and that by living the Way we can achieve this. |
In response you said:
| Quote: | | Can I disagree with this more, no! Humans are never: good or successful or anything positive without the controlling interest of the Holy Spirit in our lives. |
Do you know what the Way is? It means a life governed by the Holy Spirit.
So basically I said:
| Quote: | | It is practically true that God created us to be politically free, and that by living a life governed by the Holy Spirit we can achieve this. |
And you responded:
No, it is only possible to be free when you are governed by the Holy Spirit.
Am I missing something here, or are you missing my point totally?
| Quote: | | We will never be totally controlled by this Holy Spirit until we make it to heaven, whatever we might have here on Earth is a mere shadow of that eventuality. |
Jesus walked and lived among us, on Earth. Would you say that Jesus was totally controlled by the Holy Spirit, or was his life a mere shadow?
If you say He was totally controlled by the Holy Spirit, then how can it be impossible to do so "on this Earth"? And if you are governed by Christ, who is controlled by the Holy Spirit, how is it any different for you than it is for Christ? Please explain your views. Thanks. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Well how is being governed by the Holy Spirit the same as being "politically free"? Does this "governing spirit"accept our input or is it merely an expression of God's will? In furtherance of doing things God's way, not our way.
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Clearly your whole perspective is based on a schism between God and man. This is evident in the comparisons you make: "God's way, not our way"; "Does it accept our input". These questions refer to a model where there is no reconciliation.
It is true that outside of the Gospel we would be divided from God. However the reality of life is that through the Gospel, which was brought by Jesus, there is no division, but there is perfect unity. Let me answer your two questions one by one:
| Quote: | | Well how is being governed by the Holy Spirit the same as being "politically free"? |
1) Being politically free is defined as making your own way, and having no force or law higher than you. God's word is what establishes all creation, and His law is the only order. The definition of political freedom is faith and trust in God, through the Gospel. This works through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. So we can see that political freedom is a characteristic of the life of faith. Conversely we can see that the life that rejects the Gospel is defined as the life under political oppression. This life puts a person in a position that Paul describes as "under the law".
| Quote: | | Does this "governing spirit"accept our input or is it merely an expression of God's will? In furtherance of doing things God's way, not our way. |
2) The governing spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is God's will. There is no question of whether the Holy Spirit accepts our input. It indwells us, and we become one with the will of God, through the power of the eternal Gospel.
Isn't this what you have learned from God? |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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When we are in tune with God's will, our will is the same as God's will. Does that mean that we freely choose His will, or does it mean we are just following His will because we have no choice?
No, I suggest that there is no "freedom" at all in heaven. That "politics" as we know it here on Earth just doesn't exist. It is all God 24/7/360.
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When we are in tune with God's will, our will is the same as God's will. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | Does that mean that we freely choose His will, or does it mean we are just following His will because we have no choice? |
It means we freely choose His will. How do you see it? Can you elaborate a little and explain, with examples maybe?
| Quote: | | It is all God 24/7/360. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | That "politics" as we know it here on Earth just doesn't exist. |
If by "politics as we know it" you mean oppression, then I agree. If you mean conflict, competition and compromise, then I agree. If you mean a person being free to choose their own path, then I cannot agree, as this is a fundamental element of human nature. You cannot be a person without free will. Do you think it is possible to be a person and not have free will?
| Quote: | | No, I suggest that there is no "freedom" at all in heaven. |
Is this some strange use of the word "freedom" or are you really saying that God doesn't want us to choose Him freely? Isn't choice, free will, a free process? How else do you think we can choose him?
Please explain your views, and how you believe all this works. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5299
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Vibrate, Who are you quoting? You should let readers know who you're quoting! 
The person your quoting might know but others reading your posts are not mind readers. 
Nobby |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate is quoting me and those quoted passages come from past parts of the thread.
In human terms by analogy when we we join a team, we take on that team's persona, we lay down our own will and bend it to that of the team, it means that we have given up to a large extent the right to question the leader. The coach becomes analogous to God, he is the person who knows everything we need, he provides us with the "plays" and He is the one that everyone looks to for guidance and punishes us when we violate the rules. Theoretically the coach has a good idea of just what our potential is and how to attain it. Mostly we put our complete trust in the coach for all these things. Unlike human coaches God never fails he is very much the ideal coach.
Analogies can never truly include every possible scenario but this one works for me.
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Hi Nobby,
Thanks for that. I've been operating under the assumption that there is some technique I don't know about. I just highlight the words then click the quote button. Can you teach me the way to do it?
Also, I see that some people are able to quote others so that when you post the quote of a quote it shows up inside a box inside another box, which is really cool. I don't know how to do that either, so I've been suffering. So thanks for bringing that up.
Is there some instruction page somewhere or something?
Just for the record, I was quoting 45DegreeN |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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45DegreeN said: | Quote: | | In human terms by analogy when we we join a team, we take on that team's persona, we lay down our own will and bend it to that of the team, it means that we have given up to a large extent the right to question the leader. |
That is how Babylon, the false system, works. This is actually a key element that demonstrates the nature of the illusion, and why Babylon is false. In any false system leaders will impose their will on their followers, either by force of arms, or by priest-craft, or poly-tricks, to confuse the mind in order to achieve submission. This is false because it is unnatural, and an abomination. These systems are illusions, and sooner or later this becomes clear when people go their own way.
Nature, or the natural order, is the true order. This is the real world, which God created. Nature simply means the way that we really are. God's word teaches us the truth about ourselves, so that more and more we relax into realization of this truth. Note the key terms - natural, relax, realization. Note the key terms in Babylon - tricks, confuse, submission, domination, abomination.
You use the word "coach". In Hebrew that would be Rabbi. Jesus said that He is our only Rabbi now. He leads His people through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit naturally, freely, in truth. This indwelling is a complete political/economic/legal system that covers every element of practical life; it is not a pie in the sky fantasy that will come about at some later date.
When false political/economic/legal systems try to establish themselves, they obviously do so in the name of truth. But they are lying. In the end the truth becomes evident, but many may be deceived in the interim. However, their deception does not make the lie real, except in their own confused minds. Truth is not an emotion or a feeling; it is a fact. It enters into your emotions and feelings only when you realize the truth. But when you don't realize the truth, it sounds strange, and untrue. That's just how it works.
Babylon is false; Creation is true. Where do you live? You may "live" in Babylon, and it will be "real" to you... but that is the "nature" of illusion. See what I mean? Question: Have you ever had a dream so real you couldn't distinguish it from reality? Then how would you know you were sleeping, and how to wake up? |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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You've obviously never participated in team sports. Probably never seen football on TV either. Or been in the military either.
Any decent coach would typically express themselves in terms of loving their team members. Only wanting what is best for them. Dont understand why you pulled Babylon into this analogy. Granted this is only a shadow of how God does things but still I find your analysis wanting. Obviously the typical fallen human coach doesn't live up to God's standard but the analogy is a good one for me.
There are plenty of examples of coaches who don't follow this style of coaching, and they are not the ones I've cited. Remember I wrote good coaches not bad coaches.
Even non-team sports require good coaches and any sport can be included in this analogy. The team member typically listens to his coach because the coach knows best otherwise why would they be called a coach. We listen to God because He knows best, don't we?
It was Satan who would have us stand outside of God's will as an act of "freedom." Satan uses our desire for freedom to deny God knows best (or is right at all). There is great danger in this quest for freedom
The best case would have God "use" us as instruments. In fact in my own experience there have been many times when I have was been used by God, hopefully many more times before I pass from this world. These times were when I was doing things just like I might have otherwise done but found out later that what occurred was profoundly different than I saw it. How I acted in these cases (as God's instrument) took no amount of my own will, no additional effort on my part, but looking back on them I could see it differently as God's will being acted out.
In fact, no, I have never had that type of dream.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I see where you're coming from. Of course what you're saying is true. I have been talking about a different angle, that's all - an aspect that you aren't really catching, because you feel that I am disagreeing with your statements. I'm just really showing a bigger picture.
Kind of like relativity vs Newtonian physics. Relativity doesn't contradict Newtonian physics, but it contradicts the claim that Newtonian physics explains everything in its own terms accurately...
No problem. I support your views fully, and I apologize for saying things that seem to be aimed at upsetting that apple-cart. I can understand why the things I'm saying could sound that way, but it's not my intention, or the true meaning of my words. But that's the way things go; things take time for people to work out communication.
Still, the truth is being communicated all around us, so no need for me to hurry.
If you want to ask me anytime, or think you might have an inkling of what I'm getting at, and if it interests you, just let me know... Thanks for the time. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi. I'm Vibrate. Just had to get a new account because the old one stopped working. You should check out my post under "New Paradigm" in this forum on politics. You may see something you like. |
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