Crossless Christianity

Jachin Boaz · Newbie Alert Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 3

I believe that people today are very deceived about what a Christian really is. They believe all you have to do is say the sinners prayer and your saved. Instant potato Christians.

There is nothing more to do but sit there in church in a pew and do nothing more but wait for a rapture to come in effect and take you home. If it was that easy, then I would not be out here stating what I believe.

Jesus already showed us how one must be saved. His way was bearing a cross. His government is the cross. It all starts at the cross and ends at the cross.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It did not say shoulders but shoulder. What is that government? Why did it not say shoulders? Because He only used one shoulder to carry the cross.

Jesus says to deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Him.

He did it, His disciples did it, and the church did it.

Why isn't this generation doing it? Because after Paul departed, grievous wolves came in not sparing the flock and corrupted people with doctrines of devils.

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Sounds like you need to chill out and mind your own business. Are you a mind reader, to be able to know the inner thoughts of these people whose lives you are judging so casually? You don't have a clue what they are dealing with in life, but you are judging their lives according to your personal standards, when you have a different background, and different way of thinking. So it is unjust.
If you have something helpful to say to someone, then by all means do so. Maybe you can help them along the way. But to look at them and criticize based on an external principle is just bigoted.

Jachin Boaz · Newbie Alert Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 3

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:

just off the top of my head here..

hello Jachin Boaz,
nice to meet you by the way.

But Jesus told us to sell all that we had and give to the poor..yes?
so why did they give to the apostles?
so they could distribute the needs of the people?
That's what they thought Judas was doing with the money bag right? buying things for the feast.

If you look at today what do you see? isn't it the very same principle? bring your tithes to the priests and they get rich while others go hungry?
still based on a carnal system, because the one in whom the church was founded was a carnal thinker. and he desired the things of men and not the things of God.
So we see then in the book of acts where a transition was made. And the one who had the government on his shoulders was made low, and another was chosen to take his place.
Of course I'm speaking about Peter and Paul.

Peter who was raised up so that he could be brought low..(like Pharoah), and Paul who was brought low so he could be exalted..(like Nebuchadnezzar).

So we see that there are two "trees" growing together in the book of Acts. we have Peter and the ways of the world, and we have Paul and the ways of the spirit.

And just as we see today both are reigning together in the world.

Another comparison,
when Peter was disputing with the husband and wife about how much they sold the land for..he didn't take it to the Lord but judged and condemned them himself. Unlike Paul, who when he was mistreated by the locksmith man, didn't come out and condemn him, but rather..the Lord rebuke thee..
hey that sounds familiar huh?

what do you think?
do we follow The Son of Man or The Son of God?
hmm..this is the question.

And yet, the Lord prayed for Peter to set us an example of how we should pray for those who are in darkness and who still need to be converted by the Lord.
An in the end we do see that Peter was converted, so there is still hope for today.
It has already been fulfilled..we're just waiting for the manifestation of it.

So in the meantime what are we supposed to do?
same thing the Lord told us to do..
Love our neighbours, love our enemies, show mercy, give forgiveness, live in peace as much as possible, and pray..definately pray.

Keep the faith, don't lose hope, and overcome the desire to despair.
and fulfill the commandment by love.

yes! overcome evil with good!!
it's the only way to play..er fight.. Wink

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

I get your point. I'm also sorry for seeming to suggest that you were being deliberately mean.
I still think that you're being judgmental, but just not deliberately so.

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject:

Hi vibrate,

sometimes I just like picking on Peter and Paul. They are examples given to us..kind of like a cross roads.

You remember when the mother of the two sons asked Jesus if her sons could sit on his right and on his left. And Jesus said that it wasn't his to give but his father in heaven?
I think Peter and Paul are these two. One on the left hand of the cross and the other on the right.

so when I look at Peter..he represents Adam or the carnal Son of Man. And when I look at Paul I see him as the firstfruit of the spirit or the Son of God.
which we are called sons of God, but that he is the first begotten after the resurrection.

So when Jesus says to the thief on his right hand, to day thou shalt be with me in paradise, he was speaking about Paul. And Peter..well, he's like the thief that didn't want to lose his stature. He would rather accuse others and get into others affairs..nosy like, you know what I mean, and not come down off his high pedestal.

He liked to have the control, be able to say who's going to heaven, who's going to hell and keep the keys for himself..
sound like anything we are familiar with?
and then ofcourse there are the daughters who kind of went their own ways, doing their thing..you know..just kind of spread out and set up their own little groves..
I bet you can find this same thing happening in the OT..because they are shadows and prophecies of the true.

But and like you say, both the Son of Man and the Son of God is his, because Jesus is over both the heaven and the earth..that is..the lofty and the common man.

And one day these two brothers will learn to love one another. Because all in heaven and all in earth will bow to our Lord. Amen.

The children are for signs and by their fruits we shall know them.
And God said, whatever God has cleansed call that not common..because before God and by God and through God we have our being and live in him.

The question is..do we judge the theives on the cross with Jesus? and how do we judge them? remembering that with what measure we mete it will be measured to us again.
so better not to judge..but observe and watch..and learn.
so we can walk in the good path and turn away from the one that leads us astray.

nevertheless, all paths lead to God. Just depends if we take the easy way to judgement or the hard way to grace.

Wink

hugs

ps. tomorrow this may change, depends on whom I'm picking on at the time. looks like Peter got chosen this time. Last time it was Paul. But I sure do learn a lot from both of them. And I appreciate the fact that they are there for our scrutiny and our learning.
helps us grow by watching their examples.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Sounds like you're trying to divide something. I understand what you're getting at, and it's useful as a cypher to organize your meditation. But it is only as useful as a pair of crutches to someone who injured his legs. As your "legs" become stronger the crutches become a hindrance, and you won't be able to "walk" as well with them.
I do practice the kind of dual approach you're talking about (interestingly enough I have also always compared Paul and Peter. I also compare John and Peter). But while I still practice that dual approach because of habit, and it does bring some benefit, I am weaning myself off of it, and I try to practice understanding the unified approach, which abolishes all that duality.
When we see two, although there is one, it is because of a split in our minds, due to illusion. It is vital that we reprogram our thinking to understand that there is only one Way.

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:

I know this is a bit off topic but I just wanted to share a quick thought as far as dualities..

I was looking up whales as in God created great whales and such things after it's kind. The question was..after what kind did God create the non-humans from..

and somehow in my study it led straight to Pharoah..lol
and you know the whale is a sea creature and I thought it odd the Pharoah should perish in the sea..red sea even.
And then there was Jonah who was swallowed up by the whale and how he desribes it as a prison in the depths of hell. And that led me to Jesus how he said the Son of Man would be 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart" of the "earth".
Now somehow this led me back to Pharoah and God "hardening" pharoahs heart. And how his heart needed to be circumcised and he died in the red sea..
thinking that the red sea was his bleeding heart which the Lord circumcised from within it.
And then I thought about how we get pri(c)ked in the heart so it bleeds..an who's in the heart using the sword to work the circumcision, even of the heart on Leviathan himself..lol
Cause you can't come at him from the outside his scales are too tough..but get him in the soft side of his belly..
soft earth/ground heart..see?..

and this is how I come up with the things I do. It's just how I'm led to hear it..and I hear new things all the time.
it's awesome!!

Just so you know I've labeled myself a universalist. I believe that God will in time reconcile (actually, already has we just waiting for the manifestation of) all things to himself.
And even the devil himself will/has submitted to the Lord.

just so I don't catch you off guard and you think I was holding out on ya.. Wink

I have nothing to hide..I am what you hmm..hear. I was going to say see, but that's kinda hard to do huh?
unless we looking at the heart and then we can see each other plainly.
Very Happy

As Jesus said to Peter..You have seen me, you have seen the Father. cause he shines his light through our hearts.. Very Happy

hugs

oh and I forgot..

that's a joke.. Laughing

_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

FriendlyFire · Newbie Alert Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 1

Dear JB......I believe I know exactly what you are talking about. To "pray the sinner's prayer" as some means of salvation? Without "repentance to purity" there is no salvation. Because repentance to purity is the mechanism of grace unto our salvation.

galen · Ferret Joined: 22 May 2005 Posts: 115 Location: Maine

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Hi, It's Vibrate. I just had to change the name because my old account disappeared somehow. I realized today that I was out of line with my response. Actually I was doing what I was accusing Lone of doing.
What I said wasn't inaccurate, technically speaking. Lone was dividing something that shouldn't be divided. But we all do it, and that's the way things are at the moment. So silly of me to speak out against it. And guess what, by speaking out against it, I was actually doing the same thing myself - dividing what shouldn't be divided.
I've been out of line on this whole thread. Jachin was just making a simple observation at the start. It sounded a little harsh to me and he apologized very graciously. But then I went way overboard and said that he was too technical. And in so doing I got too technical.
Sorry about that everybody.
Anyway, to get back to the point about what Jachin said originally, I feel that I now have a helpful thing to say. Here goes: Jachin said:

struckwithfear · Not So Newbie Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 5

EVERY believer is called to minister. Some are preachers, some are missionaries, some are noticed, some are not. But everyone has a calling from God. Most believers dont even pick up their bibles and read, and most of the ones that do dont actually try to get what it says, they just read it as literature and expect God to bless them. Christians expect blessings and healings, but the reason they need healing is because they wont stop ignoring God. People ignore the health laws. the majority of all sicknesses and diseases have resulted from disobeying God's health laws. God is asking everyone of us to get off of our butts and get outside our comfort zones. We have to get out there and spread the word. I just got back from my first mission trip. I was in mexico witnessing for 2 weeks. we went door to door, did park ministry for the children, and gave food away. before i went on the trip i was a comfortable little christian. I didnt make any effort to share the gospel, i only worshiped God when i felt like it, and i had my own little version of who i thought God was and what he wanted from me. I was in a city where 60 police officers where murdered. The mexican cartel had the whole city taken over, and there were murders nearly daily. I even ignored that to an extent...until one day when we were going door to door, we were confronted by 12 gang members, they pulled out their guns, and were going to rob, and possibly kill us. BUT we decided that we needed to share the gospel with them. Thanks to God we led all 12 of them to christ, they threw down their guns, and got rid of all their drugs and alcohol. It wasnt until then that i noticed how lazy the church in america really is. If you want to see what the church should be like, go to mexico and worship along side some mexican believers.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

If you believe more in the faith of the people who minister under the threat of being shot than you believe in the faith of those who minister in more comfortable positions, isn't that a carnally based judgment?

Who are you to say that the one who is physically more comfortable is not more in the will of God than the one who is under the threat of violence?

Who are you to say that the comfortable minister wouldn't also step up to the challenge if his circumstances were to change?

You never know.

But you should think spiritually, not in carnal or religious terms.

struckwithfear · Not So Newbie Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 5

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436