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| Are the annointed 144,000 all male virgins? |
| YES! Only Male Virgins will be allowed in to heaven! |
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| NO! It's not a literal bunch of males & not literal virgins! |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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TBax:
How long have you been JW?
What were you before?
Just curious.
Maybe the reason you think JW's are the one and only true religion is that you have become comfortable as a member of the church.
I saw first-hand for well over a decade how JW's really are. Some are very fine, outstanding people. Others put on a good show. JW's are really no different than other Christian religions in that regard.
I have attended quite a few Christian churches in my time. There are many who study the bible more and use less props (other publications) than JW's do. Yet, you look down your nose at those who are your brothers and sisters. You deny them. When you see them naked or hungry, do you feed them as the bible tells you to?
You know, TBax, I've noticed that you have a habit of only quoting single bible verses in many cases to get a point across. You know that the verses you quoted in Matthew are both speaking of false prophets who set out to deceive, not Christians who strive each day to follow in the footsteps of Christ.
Luv |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
I have been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses all my life. Although I am well aware of what other religions believe. If ONE teaches pagan doctrine it doesn't matter if that ONE has a "Christian" fasade. Actually that probably make that ONE more guilty as that one would claim to represent Jesus and teach things contrary to the truth.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Maybe the reason you think JW's are the one and only true religion is that you have become comfortable as a member of the church. |
Comfortable taking the hard road?  There is no way I would be doing this if I wasn't convinced. It would be much easier to be Catholic, or even Baptist.
I am not here because it is all I know. I am here because it is the truth. 
| luvnlife wrote: | | Yet, you look down your nose at those who are your brothers and sisters. You deny them. When you see them naked or hungry, do you feed them as the bible tells you to? |
People who are JW's are my brothers and sisters. These ones you fallaciously claim I "look down my nose at" are starving spiritually. I seek to remedy that. I seek to bring them into the fold, to be my brothers.
| luvnlife wrote: | | I saw first-hand for well over a decade how JW's really are. Some are very fine, outstanding people. Others put on a good show. |
I agree. Different people are at different level of development and some perhaps live double lives. Because this happens with those who believe the Bible as well as those who believe pagan doctrine does not mean those groups are in the same position. 
| luvnlife wrote: | | You know, TBax, I've noticed that you have a habit of only quoting single bible verses in many cases to get a point across. |
Oh. So you have noticed. That is because people seem to ignor the scriptures, or seem to be blind to them, so I repeat them. Just like the one about sects that you ignored. 
The scriptures are what carry the authority. You can believe them or explain them away.
| luvnlife wrote: | | You know that the verses you quoted in Matthew are both speaking of false prophets who set out to deceive, not Christians who strive each day to follow in the footsteps of Christ. |
Matt 7:20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
Jesus told us this so that we wouldn't be part of their groups. If you do not pay attention to Jesus words then:
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Does it matter if you are the one decieving, or the one allowing yourself to be decieved? Both are not DOING God's will. Eve was decieved. She is just as dead as Satan will be. 
Regarding these groups that claim to be Christians but are not, sinse you can recognize their fruits are not Christian would you be part of them? Why would you call them your brothers? That is why Jesus gave us that counsel, to be able to identify the true from the false.
If you see nothing wrong with groups incorperating pagan doctrine into their religion and calling it "Christian" as opposed to those who strive to teach what the Bible actually says, that is your call. I see a major difference.
2 Cor 6:14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?
If a teaching is pagan it needs to be rooted out. If it isn't, I will have no part with that group. They are not my brothers. I will strive to teach honest hearted ones from those groups to abandon such pagan teachings, as well as that group, in favor of the TRUE good news of the kingdom, to become my brother and not recieve part of their plagues :
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | TBax said: If you see nothing wrong with groups incorperating pagan doctrine into their religion and calling it "Christian" as opposed to those who strive to teach what the Bible actually says, that is your call. I see a major difference.
2 Cor 6:14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? |
Most of us on this board are not "lawless" nor are we "non-believers." I believe many on this board are great people who love and are loved by God. There are a lot of Christians that walk the hills and valleys of this virtual planet. I believe most, like myself, are glad that you are not the one who will judge us. I believe there may even be some agnostics and atheists who have lived good lives who will be judged favorably by Christ on judgment day as Jesus judges us by our hearts, not by the churches we attend.
We will be judged each one individually according to our deeds.
I don't have to ask what you think on this one. I'm just glad our judge is less judgmental and more compassionate than I perceive you to be.
Luv |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
What sharing does the truth have with Pagan ideas? What difference does it make if the pagan ideas are found in a non-Christian religion or an apostate Christian religion. We were told to keep spiritually awake so as to not drift into spiritual drowsiness. Are you keeping awake by not paying attention to your teachings or by being part of an organization that encourages things contrary to scripture?
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge;
If you want to reject the scriptures that is up to you. But to act as though God will ignor the scriptures he created,  !!!
1 Tim 4:16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
| luvnlife wrote: | | I believe there may even be some agnostics and atheists who have lived good lives who will be judged favorably by Christ |
2 Thess 1:8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.
People make choices. With decisions come consequences. To think you can ignor the warnings and be ok is irresponsible. 
Matt 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. ..... 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
If people live their lives without taking note of the times we are living in, what is going to happen to them? What happened in Noah's day? so the presence of the Son of man will be
| luvnlife wrote: | | We will be judged each one individually according to our deeds. |
Indeed! That includes being obedient to the direction God gives us.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
Or do you believe these are empty words? Or perhaps optional? Get out of her, if you want to. 
| luvnlife wrote: | | I don't have to ask what you think on this one. I'm just glad our judge is less judgmental and more compassionate than I perceive you to be. |
We shall see. God is the one who directed the scriptures I am showing you.
If you are correct then the warnings and the counsel in the scriptures becomes pointless.
Matt 7:20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. But you can follow those apostates if you want to. Right luvnlife?
Toleration is a good thing, but in the extreme degree it preverts justice and become dangerous to you. To tolerate pagan doctrine in "Christianity" is obscene. Apostate religion is not acceptable to God.
2 Thess 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.
The man of lawlessness has been revealed, and it is the clergy of Christendom. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hello TBax;
You may or may not be glad to hear that I have made a change recently.
I am attending a Baptist church.
Yes, they still believe in the Trinity but there are a few things that they do much differently than the church I attended previously:
1) They talk about GOD a lot. More than they talk about Jesus.
2) They read and discuss (on average) 1-1/2 to 2 full chapters of the bible every Sunday.
3) They don't focus on monetary matters.
4) They focus on teaching the children the word of God.
I know you still think I'm wrong for attending this church too but I have now contacted over 25 churches in my area (and I live in a small rural town) and every single church (except the JW's) believe in the Trinity. Every one.
My choices are very limited.
Just wanted to let you know about the recent changes in my personal (spiritual) life.
Luv |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
Interesting change.
| luvnlife wrote: | I know you still think I'm wrong for attending this church too but I have now contacted over 25 churches in my area (and I live in a small rural town) and every single church (except the JW's) believe in the Trinity. Every one.
My choices are very limited. |
Limited Indeed.
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. |
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Daystar
Big Guppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | We know of at least 4 non-virgin men in heaven Enoch, Abraham, Isac, Jacob. It says nothing about, only them in heaven. |
John 3:13 - Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
1 Corinthians 15:20 - However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. |
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Daystar
Big Guppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: The Anointed |
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that I disagree the Society's (Governing Body Of Jehovah's Witnesses) teachings that are directly assosiated with a scriptural interpretation of the 144,000. From what I have seen TBax summed that up pretty well ...
Where I begin to seriously question the JW view of what the 144,000 are is with their teachings regarding the so called 'anointed.'
There are three problems I have with this.
1.) They tend to have an almost veneration of the 'anointed.'
They will say something to the effect of: "Oh, he is of the anointed!" or "I met one of the anointed at the convention!" with the excitement of a Catholic who has just met the Pope.
2.) What it actually means to be anointed.
Although there were cases in the Bible where people were 'anointed' without there actually having been oiled or greased, such as seen in 1 Kings 19:15-16, and Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) in those cases the scripture leaves no doubt as to Jehovah God having anointed them. Regarding them as being spiritually anointed, if you will - but they were not anointed in their own eyes or through their own means.
In order to be one of the 'anointed' all that a JW (in good standing or not) has to do is say that they are anointed and they are not questioned on the matter.
This is why, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses Yearbooks, at any given time there may be 144,000 or even more than 144,000 (as much as 160,000 or more) of the so called 144,000.
3.) Only the 'anointed' can take part in the yearly Memorial. Only they can eat the bread and drink the wine. All other JWs are merely observers.
This is taken from the Lord's Evening meal in the Bible. The JWs make the case that Judas wasn't part of the 'Last Supper.' I disagree. There is no indication that Judas wasn't there, and every indication that he was. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | luvnlife,
Interesting change.
| luvnlife wrote: | I know you still think I'm wrong for attending this church too but I have now contacted over 25 churches in my area (and I live in a small rural town) and every single church (except the JW's) believe in the Trinity. Every one.
My choices are very limited. |
Limited Indeed.
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. |
It would be nice if you would keep your judgments to yourself. You're not God and you're not Jesus.
Would you rather I not study the bible and have the support of other Christians?
Luv |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Anointed |
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| Daystar wrote: | I wouldn't go so far as to say that I disagree the Society's (Governing Body Of Jehovah's Witnesses) teachings that are directly assosiated with a scriptural interpretation of the 144,000. From what I have seen TBax summed that up pretty well ...
Where I begin to seriously question the JW view of what the 144,000 are is with their teachings regarding the so called 'anointed.'
There are three problems I have with this.
1.) They tend to have an almost veneration of the 'anointed.'
They will say something to the effect of: "Oh, he is of the anointed!" or "I met one of the anointed at the convention!" with the excitement of a Catholic who has just met the Pope.
2.) What it actually means to be anointed.
Although there were cases in the Bible where people were 'anointed' without there actually having been oiled or greased, such as seen in 1 Kings 19:15-16, and Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) in those cases the scripture leaves no doubt as to Jehovah God having anointed them. Regarding them as being spiritually anointed, if you will - but they were not anointed in their own eyes or through their own means.
In order to be one of the 'anointed' all that a JW (in good standing or not) has to do is say that they are anointed and they are not questioned on the matter.
This is why, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses Yearbooks, at any given time there may be 144,000 or even more than 144,000 (as much as 160,000 or more) of the so called 144,000.
3.) Only the 'anointed' can take part in the yearly Memorial. Only they can eat the bread and drink the wine. All other JWs are merely observers.
This is taken from the Lord's Evening meal in the Bible. The JWs make the case that Judas wasn't part of the 'Last Supper.' I disagree. There is no indication that Judas wasn't there, and every indication that he was. |
Daystar; You ARE a star!
These points and many other reasons are why I cannot be a JW and why I do not belong to this sect.
Luv |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | | It would be nice if you would keep your judgments to yourself. You're not God and you're not Jesus. |
What did you expect? They teach pagan doctrine, yet you see no problem meshing with it.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Would you rather I not study the bible and have the support of other Christians? |
No. That is exactly what I do want. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Daystar,
The annointed are the ones that will rule as kings with Christ in heaven. Would you have been excited to have spoken to an apostle? Although not exactly the same, it is similar. They are part of God's kingdom arrangement. Some may go overboard in their excitement. That is no reason to reject the truth. 
| Daystar wrote: | | In order to be one of the 'anointed' all that a JW (in good standing or not) has to do is say that they are anointed and they are not questioned on the matter. |
If their actions don't betray their claim, then that is between them and God. Some do partake unworthily. That is for God to judge.
| Daystar wrote: | | This is why, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses Yearbooks, at any given time there may be 144,000 or even more than 144,000 (as much as 160,000 or more) of the so called 144,000. |
Totally untrue. It is no where near those numbers. Please get your facts straight.
| Daystar wrote: | 3.) Only the 'anointed' can take part in the yearly Memorial. Only they can eat the bread and drink the wine. All other JWs are merely observers.
This is taken from the Lord's Evening meal in the Bible. The JWs make the case that Judas wasn't part of the 'Last Supper.' I disagree. There is no indication that Judas wasn't there, and every indication that he was. |
Wrong again. It is because the covenant is between Jesus and those who will rule with him in the kingdom. It has nothing to do with Judas, who possibly won't even be resurrected for his wicked act.
Last edited by TBax on Tue May 13, 2008 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | Daystar; You ARE a star!
These points and many other reasons are why I cannot be a JW and why I do not belong to this sect. |
That is why??????????? Yes, so let's go to a place that teaches pagan doctrine.  |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 690
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Please get back to the OP. Thanks. God bless. |
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Daystar
Big Guppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Daystar,
The annointed are the ones that will rule as kings with Christ in heaven. Would you have been excited to have spoken to an apostle? Although not exactly the same, it is similar. They are part of God's kingdom arrangement. 8-) Some may go overboard in their excitement. That is no reason to reject the truth. :roll: |
The 144,000 are the ones of which you speak, the 'anointed' are the ones who assume that they are the 144,000. There is a distinction there, in my opinion.
I agree with you that this is no reason to reject the truth.
| TBax wrote: | | If their actions don't betray their claim, then that is between them and God. Some do partake unworthily. That is for God to judge. |
In part I agree with you. It isn't their actions that are in question, and if it were that would be between them and Jehovah God. I don't think that is my position to question or to judge them, I do think that it is right to question their motives or perhaps more accurately, the notion of those who are anointed by their own accord.
| Daystar wrote: | | This is why, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses Yearbooks, at any given time there may be 144,000 or even more than 144,000 (as much as 160,000 or more) of the so called 144,000. |
| TBax wrote: | | Totally untrue. It is no where near those numbers. Please get your facts straight. :roll: |
From a 1970 Watchtower, Questions From Readers, the WB&TS wrote: "Does this mean that, since about 1935, those already resurrected to heaven together with the spirit-begotten remnant yet on earth have made full the number of 144,000? Yes, that is the conclusion to which the evidence points. "
However, you are correct in that the numbers I gave for the Yearbooks are incorrect. I looked back in some of the recent Yearbooks and the number was usually about 8,570.
When I studied with the JWs the Presiding Overseer of the congregation conducted the study, and he is the one that told me that the number of 144,000 sometimes added up to more than 144,000.
I asked him how this was possible and he said that it was between Jehovah and them. In other words the quote from the 1970 Watchtower indicates that the 144,000 were made full, but still there are over 8,000 claiming to be of the anointed. This number adds up to more than 144,000 since Pentacost 33 C.E.
| Daystar wrote: | 3.) Only the 'anointed' can take part in the yearly Memorial. Only they can eat the bread and drink the wine. All other JWs are merely observers.
This is taken from the Lord's Evening meal in the Bible. The JWs make the case that Judas wasn't part of the 'Last Supper.' I disagree. There is no indication that Judas wasn't there, and every indication that he was. |
| TBax wrote: | | Wrong again. It is because the covenant is between Jesus and those who will rule with him in the kingdom. It has nothing to do with Judas, who possibly won't even be resurrected for his wicked act. |
Are you suggesting that the Presiding Overseer of my congregation, when explaining to me why only the 144,000 - the 'anointed' who partook in the memorial - was due to or connected in some way to the fact that Judas didn't partake was not in accord with the Society's teaching?
Let me just ask you this. Did Judas partake in the bread and wine at the Lord's evening meal.
Now I may be wrong on this, if so, please correct me, but let me tell you this. When I studied with the JWs back in the 1990's I was considered an excellent Bible study. I read literature from the WTB&TS going back to the 1950's and Elders in the congregation came to me with questions about, not only the Bible, but their own literature because I was so enthusiastic about my study.
I have corrected elders of the congregation regarding the Bible and the literature of the Watchtower. Rightfully so. When I studied with the JW's I had already read the Proclaimers book when the society was admonishing their own for not having done so. Before my study I would give notes to the Presiding Overseer on the Proclaimers book because he hadn't time to read it.
My own mother, who came to the meetings upon my invitation, became a baptized Witness and has been one for about a decade, and when she has questions about what the society teaches she asks me. When she has problems with what she sees going on in the congregation - in 'the truth' I often correct her, pointing out that she is in the wrong.
I am not ignorant of the religion of your choice. |
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