CHOICE AND OR CHOSEN

Roster · Big Goldfish Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 66

I say choice.

If God interfered with us then it would not be our choice or called free will.

45degreeN · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:24 am Post subject:

JimD you've conflated parts of scripture and tried to get them to say something that it didn't intend to say.

Those who are members of the body of Christ have a new spirit and new life and are not bound by the old flesh. Granted they may still choose to follow that old way but they have the ability to choose God's way instead. Otherwise God's promise of His Holy Spirit is in vain also.
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JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 513

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

JimD,

One of the problems we face is that the scriptures in fact say.

John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

John 15;16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

We can't chose God. He must chose us. You can't get around that in scriptures. Some how we must reconcile God's love for all with those that are chosen. Therein lies the problem for me personally and I do believe that God loves all, but I also believe that not all are chosen.

Yehu is right in that we are hopeless in our efforts with out the regeneration through the Holy Spirit.

Romans 7 Paul says, "I do the things I don't want to do and the things that I want to do I can't do". Paul makes the human condition clear.

Romans 12: 1-2 we see a two fold transformation. There is first the subjective or the renewing of our spirit through the Holy Spirit and then there is the Objective and that is seen in verse 2 which is in reference of the renewing of the mind.

It is a difficult issue. Some seem to think that it isn't and I understand where you are coming from. I think that we need to come up with a different approach or we will never convert the Calvinist from the error of their ways. Twisted Evil

Your friend in Christ

JB

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 513

JB

I have no illusions about converting the Calvinist, Only the Holy Spirit can do that.
To me, you and Yehu are basically Calvinistic, and that is ok, it is not a critical issue, just very interesting.
To me the basic cause of Calvinism, and many other issues is literalism.
Another may be not fully understanding the idea of chosen.
What one believes concerning the sister doctrine of once saved always saved can also be a determining factor, etc, etc, see my signature.

PS: A little common sense doesn’t hurt either.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

JimD,

It is good to see you are alive and well. I wonder what happened to you and HeKkLer. the is still one on the MIA.

You say:
To me, you and Yehu are basically Calvinistic, and that is ok, it is not a critical issue, just very interesting.

Jim, just for the record. I have more debate with Calvinists than I do with Arminians. I do not believe in once saved always saved and never will. But at the same time, Arminian Theology is as equally broken.

I sense that you didn't really read my last post.

there was nothing disingenuous about it. Maybe you should read it again.

JB

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 513

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

JimD,
Just so you know, there are many areas that Yehu and I disagree. I do not in any way embrace a salvation offered to a select few.

In the scriptures it is written "many are called but a few are chosen". Since I appreciate what the Greek has to offer on this text It would be good to share my opinion of this text.

Called is kletos.
Chosen is ekkletos.

Kletos is in both words. The difference is seen in the preposition ek. Ek means to move away from. Despite the opinion and theology of the Calvinist camp this text clearly indicates that not all who are called are chosen. But it does indicate that they are called.

1 Peter 2:10 -12
for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe {them,} glorify God in the day of visitation.

Our behavior impacts others lives. Paul over time arrested many Christians before his conversion. Over time these men and women had a great impact upon his life. Starting with the stoning of Stephen in Acts.

On the Road to Damascus, Christ confronted Paul. He asked Paul why Paul kicked against the goads. Interestingly enough that can also be interpreted as a sharp pricking in the heart. On the day of Pentecost this happened to the listeners as Peter preached the risen Christ.

The sower and the seed . What happens when we plant seed in rocky soil? The seeds die. A good gardener removes the rocks and prepares the soil before they plant. It is by our holy lives and sincere conviction and a deep Christlike love that the soil of other peoples hearts are prepared.

John 12:32 If I be lifted up I will draw all men. Just because God draws all men that doesn't mean that they will be saved. On the day of visitation if their heart isn't prepared, which is our responsibility, they don't become the chosen.

In essence, it isn't God that is to blame but we are to blame.

This is just a short version of my position. There is a much longer one available.

God Bless JimD

JB

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 513

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

JimD,
Are you referring to the question of broken theology?
No one has a perfect theology and those who think that they do are foolish. I hope that this is the question that you are talking about.

JB

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 513

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

JimD,
I have always been one who attempts to first approach the scriptures from a literal point of view. For example: Called and chosen. I am not sure that chosen is the best word for that text in Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. I think that this text needs to be taken in a literal sense. Let's look at it.

Many are called. This suggests that God salvation is offered to the multitudes. (Salvation for all) There are those who aren't called for many different reasons such as sever mental retardation. or a child that dies in infancy. God's Grace is however sufficient for those who do not have the capacity or opportunity to be saved.

Here is the problem. If I take the first part literally as I do and then try to make the second part, non-literal then I create a certain amount of difficulty for my interpretation of this text. In other words, I can't have it both ways. Instead I chose to take a closer look at the literal view and try to gain insight from it. Here is what I learned.

Many are called (kletos)
Few are chosen (ek kletos) or called out of.

This text is a problem for a Calvinist. kletos is called and this text clearly and literally points to God doing
the calling. This is a serious dent in their theology.

If you make that part non-literal then you have weakened your position. I believe that the translators should have used the words, called away from or called out of rather than chosen.

Many are called and some are called out of. This is literal.

there are many texts that should be taken in a literal sense but this text isn't one of them

So my answer to you is some times but as a last effort at understanding.

I hoped this answered your question.

JB

45degreeN · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:49 am Post subject:

One way to interpret this is from the analogy of the spreader of seed in a field. Each and every seed is a gospel self contained. Not every seed will sprout though. In theory it "might" sprout but the fact is that they don't all grow to adult plants. Still the field is full of adult plants at the end of the growing season. Twice each year there are harvest celebrations (Feasts of Pentecost and Trumpets) symbolic of the conversion process.

Yes every analogy has a weakness. People are not plants, but the idea contained in this analogy was the very one used by Jesus Himself, and the one that God instituted in His plan for the calendar year.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.

Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 513

As far as I can tell, all are called, some are chosen, but being chosen does not guarantee one will remain faithful. In fact it does not even mean one is faithful, see Pharaoh, most of the Jews, Judas, etc. God can choose someone or some group for a purpose without the purpose determining their individual salvation. So being chosen does not necessarily mean chosen to salvation. Ultimately salvation is determined by a faithful life. Chosen probably has more to do with Gods purpose for us than with our salvation. In other words trying to equate chosen with salvation may be a mistake. God chooses us for his purpose by how he equips, and where he places us, etc. God calls and chooses but make no mistake, he allows us to accept or reject. The following was very helpful to me:

CHOSEN:
977. RXÁbÆ~.(Did not copy and paste properly)
A primitive root.
Properly to try, i.e. (by implication) select.
Acceptable, appoint, choose, choice, excellent, join, be rather, require.
1 : an experimental trial : ATTEMPT
Function:verb
Inflected Form:tried ; try£ing
Etymology:Middle English trien, from Anglo-French trier to select, sort, examine, determine, probably from Late Latin tritare to grind,
transitive verb
1 a : to examine or investigate judicially *try a case* b (1) : to conduct the trial of (2) : to participate as counsel in the judicial examination of
2 a : to put to test or trial *try one's luck* — often used with out *try out a new method* b : to subject to something (as undue strain or excessive hardship or provocation) that tests the powers of endurance c : DEMONSTRATE, PROVE
3 a obsolete : PURIFY, REFINE b : to melt down and procure in a pure state : RENDER *try out whale oil from blubber*
4 : to fit or finish with accuracy
5 : to make an attempt at — often used with an infinitive *try to fix the car*
intransitive verb : to make an attempt *you can do it if you try*
synonyms see AFFLICT, ATTEMPT
–try one's hand : to attempt something for the first time
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD