Judas

Steen · Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject: Judas

Here is something that has always bothered me.

Judas is listed as the villain of weak character who betrayed Jesus.

Jesus does admonish Judas when he is actually pointed out to the Priests and thus to the Romans, and Jjesus does seem to show some distress about Judas " betray the Son of man with a kiss." (Luke 22:47)

But on the other hand, if Judas had NOT done so, what would have happened? If the Romans had not taken Jesus into custody at that time, would the crowds have been there to witness the fullfillment of the prophesy of the Messias?

Could Judas, in fact, be the only one Jesus trust enough to do this, and he just failed by doing it improperly? Jesus HAD to be arrested at that time for the Jews to truly witness the occurance, and as such, it could be Judas who made this possible. Certainly, Jesus pointed out to the other diciples that they were weak and knew that Peter would deny knowledge of him, after all.

Is Judas to some extend one of the heroes?
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Star · Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:08 pm Post subject:

Steen

I think you are a very honest person in your questioning. I thought the same and still have a few questions of my own. I think people have alot of fear in regards to Judas as a betrayer of the Lord to side with Him. But in your post (in the Exodus section) I posted a verse where the Lord Himself is seen directing His actions in the gospels... THERES where I stop and take a good look without offense.

Satan entered Judas and Jesus knew all along who would betray Him and from scripture He could see this as well. I think this is all too interesting. Christ orders, "What you are about to do do quickly". I think theres alot of undiscovered treasures in this and its come to my attention over and over again.

It certainly looks as those Judas did prepare the way before the Lord and that God put into their hearts to accomplish His purpose. To me anyway.

Worth thinking on really.

In Him

Star

Star · Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject:

Heres some verses Steen (these are very interesting)

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, UNTIL the words of God shall be fulfilled. (Seen fulfilled in Christ)

John 13:27 And after the sop SATAN ENTERED into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (Christ ordered Him)

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

Old Testament prophesy
Zach 11:12 And ((((I)))) said UNTO THEM, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver.

And the LORD said UNTO ME, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Mat 26:15 And said [unto them], What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by *Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Mat 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, (((AS THE LORD APPOINTED ME)))).

God appointed Him, God is speaking with Him in Zechariah, and the Lord is odering it in the gospels.

Yes I see this Steen

In Him

Star

Steen · Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject:

It does seem like Juday would HAVE to take the silver, then? How could he do this without actually betray jesus in how he delivered him for crucifiction?

It is not really clear to me from scripture whether Judas was bad in his deed, or rather in the way he carried it out?

To me it is confusing because of the duality. Judas caused Jesus to be crucified, which is bad and good both and which has always bothered me. Of course, it hasn't helped that the Sunday School deliverance of this was Judas as a charicature of ultimate badness, which never made sense to me because his actions were necessary (Those kinds of questions usually got me into trouble, though, and never was answered to my satisfaction Sad

)

Judas did it through betrayal, which always seemed bad to me, but then I didn't remember the OT reference to this, so now I am even more in confused. Does anybody know of a good reference that actually deal with Judas in more detail? I would greatly appreciate it.
_________________
Geology: fossils of different ages
Paleontology: fossil sequence & species change over time.
Taxonomy: biological relationships
Evolution: explanation that ties it all together.
Creationism: squeezing eyes shut, wailing "DOES NOT!"

Star · Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject:

I know what you mean Steen,

Then too do I try to see it in more of a spiritual light even in this.

Like Buy the Truth and Sell it not. As if theres more in the picture then we are seeing, not sure but I think of it as you do.

If God put it into their hearts or Judas' heart to accomplish His purpose or to fulfill His words you wonder. Not much is said and pretty silent and I'm not too satified with what I'm presently seeing. But the thing I have found when I feel this way is that theres more then I presently know or understand and I hope to understand it better. He is faithful and He does give understanding. Whenever I feel "confused" even saddened over something I seeing incorrectly I take this as check in me to hold the thought until its clear.

In Relation to Buying and Selling theres the truth of this seen in Revelation. Theres also the exchanging the Truth for a Lie and the buying of Truth and selling it. Yet Jesus' words are "buy of me gold refined" or buy without cost or Esau selling His birthright etc. I think the picture with Judas in it has more to offer in understanding Gods Truth in Christ elsewhere.

Those verses about show God is in full control though and it wasn't Judas' Cup given to Christ but the Cup of the Father. If you note in scripture the placement of the cup is seen in various hands as God gives it. The same with the Sword. But both which are for Christ are for us as well.

He said, "Ye shall indeed drink my cup" and the Sword awakened agaiinst Christ in Zecheriah that was striking the Sheperd turned against the sheep as well. (Just mumbling aloud- I do that lol! Laughing

)

I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on this. I'll hang and read what others share on this too.

God Bless Steen

In Him

Star

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Judas may have seen ... Jesus as someone creative enough to get out of any predicament.

Earlier, the followers had voiced concern, if only among them selves, that Jesus talked about," going to the father," and " where I am going you cannot come," and wondered if Jesus was contemplating suicide.

The psychology of the times indicated to some extent that when Jesus spoke this way, they obviously didn't like what He said, how He said it and most importantly, how He meant it.

They believed that He was the messiah of promise but, none were prepared for the christ of promise to die. The belief was that the christ would build an earthly church, throw down all unrighteous rulers and leaders then assign ministers to attend to the daily order of service, and they thought, hoped it would be them.

The last thing that they wanted to hear was Jesus considering His own death. No one was ready to receive the actual Christ, even His closest followers only heard what they wanted to hear. Everone missed what His actual mission was until He was gone.

Was Judas more insightful than the rest? Did He believe that there was nothing that he himself could do that would trap Jesus. Perhaps Judas just wanted the silver and hoped Jesus would escape, and of course, Judas would keep the money.

If so, the little ruse failed to materialize and perhaps Jesus used Judas for just that purpose. To get Himself on the cross.

I hope we learn all of the facts, some day, concerning the matter.

thunder
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Star · Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:27 am Post subject:

I hear ya Thunder. We know He threw the money back and that also is seen in the Old Testament prophesy, so one has to wonder. There is certain of one thing that God is in full control. The one Jesus rebuked was Peter in trying to save Him from what God had purposed for Him.

Except a grain of wheat falleth to the goround and die it abideth alone but if it die it produces many.

There is the thought also that going to the Cross as One in the flesh of one man would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and that as we had once regarded Christ according to the Flesh theres a new way according to the Spirit to regard Him. He changes forms, from One Man into Christ in us (we being many). The Cross was the tool to accomplish what God desired which was a Body that He prepared or as a New Tomb Christ was laid (Us). To bring us up out of our graves and into the presense of God seated in heavenly places with Him.

As He was crucified as one we are crucified with Him.

In Him

Star

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 635 Location: Pa.

Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray Him. God did not make Judas choose to betray, however in knowing that Judas would, he was utilized for Gods purposes.
Luke 22:21-22 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

45degreeN · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:18 am Post subject:

People tend to look at these event in isolation but at the time one could not. Judas was part of the zealots and they had over the previous few years fomented rebellion and several other rebel leaders had claimed that they were the messiah as they beat their collective heads against the Roman army and lost.

Judas probably expected Jesus to fight the Romans like all of those others and hopefully win. His ideas of Jesus being flavored by his own way of thinking. Judas just had no real understanding of who Jesus was (the divine son of God)and the sacrifice that paid for the sins of mankind. Even after the betrayal Jesus was prepared to forgive Judas, but by taking His own life prevented that from happening. Remember Peter's betrayal?

People that are uninformed just dont realize the outside events of that day and therefore miss the context of Judas' betrayal. Jesus was hardly the only one claiming to be the messiah and while all the rest of them were military rebellion leaders probably didn't make the Jesus we know out to be much of anything. Just possibly by provoking Him, Judas could get Him into the mood for a fight. (obviously it didn't happen though)
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lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:42 am Post subject:

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.

Luk 12:8 ¶ Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Why is it we are all ready and willing to forgive and have mercy on Peter who denied the Lord 3 times, and yet not willing to show even one iota of forgiveness and mercy to Judas who did not deny the Lord, but showed him openly to the world..even with a kiss.
And cried out confessing the "innocent blood", and sought forgiveness from those who were under merciless law. And so we see the true fruits of the world and the true fruits of the Spirit of God.
Judas did not conceal or hide his sin. He did not deny the Lord. And yet...
you want to see the pot calling the kettle black?

Act 1:15 ¶ And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

And Judas hung himself on a tree..he was cursed..and yet,

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So now looking at the two theives being crucfied with him..
which one confessed his sins and was brought to paradise and which one concealed his own sin and was denied before angels?

Was Peter denied before an angel?

Paul writes:

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.

did Paul deny Peter?

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Peter condemned Judas as a traitor and omitted his own sin.
But nothing is hid that shall not be made manifest..

If you can find it in your heart to forgive Peter, why is it you can not find it in your heart to forgive Judas..
who truly confessed the Lord and did not deny him as his accusers accused him of doing and yet avoided their own confession of denial of him?

hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

45degreeN · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:03 am Post subject:

Forgiving Peter was something that Jesus did and I dont really need to do. Judas took the ultimate trip and did himself in, not allowing Jesus to forgive him. Probably thought that it was unforgivable for him to have done what he did, and he would be wrong(again).

Peter continued to be an ignorant fisherman. It took an academic (Paul)to finally bring the total message into the world. Paul's writing took 3/4 of the New Testament since it was so important. Peter more than anything is a prime example of how a person can still be less than perfect after being filled with the Holy Spirit.
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lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject:

hi 45,

and yet I see Judas taking up his cross and condemning his sin in the flesh by destroying the flesh itself.
And I believe that Jesus knowing what Judas was commisioned to do already forgave him ahead of time.
And it is only the ones who are still uncircumcised in heart which accuse him of being a traitor when in truth he did what the Lord told him to do..

Luk 6:46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

There is another parable concerning those who will be greatest in the kingdom will be last, and those who humble themselves will be first.

Peter who thought to be first and the kingdom to be built upon him, became the least. While Paul who humbled himself as least became great.

and there is another parable concerning the mote in one's eye..and Jesus spoke these parables in the ears of his disciples..did they hear him? was Peter truly listening?
Or did Jesus percieve him to be deaf and that is why he asked him 3 times..Peter, do you love me?

and when Jesus speaks about doing things agains the least of these his brethren he has done it unto the Lord himself. was Peter listening?

Peter..do you love me?
feed my sheep.

hugs 45,
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Roster · Big Goldfish Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 66

It was a plan for Judas to deceive Jesus. We see no scripture suggesting that Judas and Jesus had this all planned out, maybe God but not these two. As the verse states, Jesus knew who would betray him at the table (Judas).

If it was a subliminal message that Jesus and Judas were working together (as stated above) then Judas would not have hung himself. No matter the feeling that Judas would have got in himself after realizing that he just basically sealed the prophecy even though Jesus told him it was necessary and that Judas would be rewarded for his brave actions. Judas would have known this in his heart that he did the right thing no matter people said because it had to have been done. Therefore, Judas would not have hung himself because he new his reward. As you stated before, Judas's actions had to be carried out other wise Jesus would not have died on the cross.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:

and yet there were 12 at the table. And Judas isn't the only one who betrayed the Lord.
The only one who did what had to be done was Judas all the others fled.
He who seeks to save his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake shall find it.

Even the sons of thunder wanted to be elevated above their brethren and be placed on each side of the Lord. Thomas doubted..
All are sinners, there is none righteous no not one. But we hold Judas alone in contempt. As if he was somehow the only one of the 12 who had betrayed the Lord.
The only difference between Judas and the others, is that Judas' sin is out in the open while all the others keep their sin concealed in their hearts..yea?

Or was it only planned that way so that we would choose to judge according to appearances and not according to the heart of the matter.. Question

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Nobby · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: