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Trinity1
King Kong
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 2985
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | And it's absolutely retarded that I actually have to explain how the law of entropy works to someone trying to use it in an argument.
So congratulations. You're yet one more tick in my theory that creationists that invoke the laws of thermodynamics in their arguments have no idea how the laws of thermodynamics actually work. |
Finally... back online.. lets et back to Guth and your Zero sum Energy hypothesis and how it essentially negates 2LoTD.
Can you even explain how positive and negative energy make this possible? Before the board went down you kept appealing to the 'fact' that negative energy somehow negated 2LoTD.... as it was not violated.... because of Guth's proposition/supposition. Explain. With this explanation... I would like some specific citations other than an entire website or page... if you are going to cite wikipedia... fine... but tell me/us... how 2LoTD is overcome through Guth's hypothesis. I read the webpage and didn’t see it.
BTW... Guth does believe that everything came from nothing. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5552
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Can you even explain how positive and negative energy make this possible? Before the board went down you kept appealing to the 'fact' that negative energy somehow negated 2LoTD.... as it was not violated.... because of Guth's proposition/supposition. Explain. |
Because in the math they cancel each other out. A - A = 0. The resulting net energy is zero, thus energy has not been created (and thus not violating the law).
The law isn't negated, it's simply bypassed.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | BTW... Guth does believe that everything came from nothing. |
If the net energy of "everything" is zero, this does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. |
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Trinity1
King Kong
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 2985
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Can you even explain how positive and negative energy make this possible? Before the board went down you kept appealing to the 'fact' that negative energy somehow negated 2LoTD.... as it was not violated.... because of Guth's proposition/supposition. Explain. |
Because in the math they cancel each other out. A - A = 0. The resulting net energy is zero, thus energy has not been created (and thus not violating the law).
The law isn't negated, it's simply bypassed. |
I didn't see a defintion of positive and negative energy... if neative energy cancels out positive energy, what is it?
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | BTW... Guth does believe that everything came from nothing. |
If the net energy of "everything" is zero, this does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. |
No... but it most certainly violates the first... and the Law of Causality. Guth needs everything to come from nothing... as there is no other explanation... unless we defer to a 'Creator'... and Lord knows we can't be having that in Science... soemeone might get
'Sternberged' or something for even mentioning it.  |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5552
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | I didn't see a defintion of positive and negative energy... if neative energy cancels out positive energy, what is it? |
Gravity, for instance. There was a definition of sorts in one of the links I've posted but they were in another thread.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | No... but it most certainly violates the first... |
Again, if the net energy is zero, the laws of thermodynamics are being bypassed.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | and the Law of Causality. |
What Law of Causality?
| Trinity1 wrote: | Guth needs everything to come from nothing... as there is no other explanation... unless we defer to a 'Creator'... and Lord knows we can't be having that in Science... soemeone might get
'Sternberged' or something for even mentioning it. |
Yes, Heaven forfend someone betray the peer review process and get used as a figurehead for a nonsense movement when they didn't really get punished in the first place (so they can't actually sue because then the facts would get brought up in an actual courtroom instead of the court of public opinion).
And exceedingly minute examples of exactly what I'm talking about (back to the positive/negative energy thing) happen all of the time without a cause. (Hint: there's no such thing as a "Law" of Causality) |
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Trinity1
King Kong
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 2985
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | I didn't see a defintion of positive and negative energy... if neative energy cancels out positive energy, what is it? |
Gravity, for instance. There was a definition of sorts in one of the links I've posted but they were in another thread.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | No... but it most certainly violates the first... |
Again, if the net energy is zero, the laws of thermodynamics are being bypassed.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | and the Law of Causality. |
What Law of Causality?
| Trinity1 wrote: | Guth needs everything to come from nothing... as there is no other explanation... unless we defer to a 'Creator'... and Lord knows we can't be having that in Science... soemeone might get
'Sternberged' or something for even mentioning it. |
Yes, Heaven forfend someone betray the peer review process and get used as a figurehead for a nonsense movement when they didn't really get punished in the first place (so they can't actually sue because then the facts would get brought up in an actual courtroom instead of the court of public opinion).
And exceedingly minute examples of exactly what I'm talking about (back to the positive/negative energy thing) happen all of the time without a cause. (Hint: there's no such thing as a "Law" of Causality) |
Exactly what I thought... no explanation of what negativeenergy actually is (other than perhaps gravity ).
Also... if the Law of Causality is not a law... perhaps... maybe... you would like to offer or cite an example of its violation? This is pretty much akin to your instance that 2LoTD and 1LoTD can be violated without providing one example. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5552
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Exactly what I thought... no explanation of what negativeenergy actually is (other than perhaps gravity ). |
So you don't know what you thought or something?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Also... if the Law of Causality is not a law... perhaps... maybe... you would like to offer or cite an example of its violation? |
That's not how it works. I don't have to give counterexamples to show that the supposed "Law of Causality" isn't a law--it's an argument from ignorance. "We haven't observed any acausal events (not true any more) therefore they don't happen." Hell, radioactive decay is to a certain extent acausal.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | This is pretty much akin to your instance that 2LoTD and 1LoTD can be violated without providing one example. |
Vacuum fluctuations are both acausal and appear to "violate" the laws of thermodynamics.
(edit)(fixed first quote) nobby |
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