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dabmci
Ferret
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Wylie
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Arthur
Did you are anyone else speaking read what Jesus said to Thomas?
I think that might clear up some things. If you died on a stake as the JW believe there would be no need for nails in your hands. Only one nail would be needed.
Thank about it. I may be wrong. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Yehu wrote: | | HeKkLeR wrote: | | Oddly enough, between 83 - 80 BCE, there are three coins shown that appear to be promoting a stake. |
Really?  Might you show me which three, please? I stand curious.
Yehu |
83 BCE
82 BCE
81 BCE
Those images look more like stakes than crosses. But I doubt they are stakes, and I know they are not crosses. 
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Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: I was told Jesus did not die on a Cross, is that true? |
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| Arthur wrote: | I came across some unsettling research the other day about the cross. I know the cross has become a Christian symbol, but what I did not know is that the Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions is stau•ros´. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau•ros´], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
Was that the case in connection with the execution of God’s Son? It is noteworthy that the Bible also uses the word xy´lon to identify the device used. A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines this as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xy´lon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.)
Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross.
Anybody have any evidence to the contrary on this or are we all using the wrong symbol here?
Arthur |
Arthur-
I don't want to come across as calous if this is something that's very important too you, but WHY does this unsettle you? How is this something worthy of concern?
When told the true narrative about our Lord's suffering and death for us, taking away the sins of the WORLD and that this was no 'man' but God and Man who did this...
does it matter if it was two beams or one? Is it the 'symbol' of the cross that matters, or is it the unfathomable gift of the Son of God for you and I that strikes you?
Just hoping to see what your angle is.
On a historical note, we do know that the Roman practice of crucifiction was practiced Hundreds of Thousands of times and that according to documents, they used a cross beam to hold their arms outward from the body.
Your Brother
John |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2717
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hek,
Have you ever watched the HBO special Rome? Marc Antony’s body guard marched around with what looked liked rifles (with cartridge) over their shoulder. This contraption was derived from your coin labeled 83 BC. Some historians have decided this is a weapon, the blade extending out the top, with the “flange” to the left to be used by the hand for thrusting the blade.
The soldier to the left of Caesar carries one, with the "flange" covering the face of the guy in blue. Also to the right of Caesar’s neck.
I see, however, an axe overtop a bundled sheath of wheat, with one wheat leaf on the left, unless by cross you meant the poll with the coiled snakes on the right which looks like the Medical emblem.
TYPE 1
TYPE 2
Ever found it fascinating that the standard type 1 medical emblem looks like a DNA helix?
Then again, it might just be a representation of the Roman army standard carried by a legion.
The second coin looks like a triumph column. The third having a triumph column and a sheath of wheat.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2717
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: I was told Jesus did not die on a Cross, is that true? |
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| Brother John wrote: | | according to documents, they used a cross beam to hold their arms outward from the body. |
So would it be obtuse of me to request supportive documentation? Just what documents? Have you any links? Or do you just repeat what you've read as Arthur seems to be doing?
Best Regards,
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 890
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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A man had two sons, he came to the first and asked him to work in the vineyard that day. The son replied 'no', but later regretted it, and went and worked in the vineyard.
The man asked his second son to work the vineyard. The second son said 'no problem', but actually did not go.
Arthur, which of the two sons did the will of his father?
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2717
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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(A bump up for Arthur who seems mysteriously absent.)
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Arthur
Big Goldfish
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: Nails in Jesus hands |
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Dear Dabmci.....said "If you died on a stake as the JW believe there would be no need for nails in your hands. Only one nail would be needed."
Arthur Replies: Actually if Jesus was nailed to a stake and his hands where crossed one over the other (which makes sense otherwise one arm would be hanging down......) then 1 big nail over the wrist area would have been enough. However we do not know if one or two big nails were used.....these details do not seem to be recorded that I have seen in the Bible.
Therefore Jesus would have holes in both hands/wrists nailed to a stake, would he not?
Your friend in the Truth
Arthur |
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Arthur
Big Goldfish
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Dust the vineyard and the cross how does it connect? |
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DUST wrote: "A man had two sons, he came to the first and asked him to work in the vineyard that day. The son replied 'no', but later regretted it, and went and worked in the vineyard. The man asked his second son to work the vineyard. The second son said 'no problem', but actually did not go. Arthur, which of the two sons did the will of his father?"
ARTHUR Replies: Thank you Dust for your reply. I have enjoyed many of your postings and responses. The answer to your question of course evident, however how does this fit in with the subject on the pagan symbol of the cross?
I would like to invite you (with an open mind) to carefully read the information by the outspoken historian at http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/sect56.htm
Your friend in the Truth
Arthur |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 890
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Dust previously wrote: | A man had two sons, he came to the first and asked him to work in the vineyard that day. The son replied 'no', but later regretted it, and went and worked in the vineyard.
The man asked his second son to work the vineyard. The second son said 'no problem', but actually did not go.
Arthur, which of the two sons did the will of his father? |
| Arthur wrote: | | Thank you Dust for your reply. I have enjoyed many of your postings and responses. The answer to your question of course evident, however how does this fit in with the subject on the pagan symbol of the cross? |
Arthur I am referencing a biblical parable, which relates a point of truth.....
| Quote: | The Parable of the Two Sons
[Jesus speaking to the chief priests and the elders in the temple courts.]
28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. |
This parable teaches us not to hold the vain philosphies and/or traditions of our religious group above the truth when we encounter it.
Arthur, I read the article you referenced. Let me try to demonstrate it's irrelevancy......
Picture yourself brokenhearted, weary, all alone, down and out, in tatters, cold, hungery, and on the street. From the midst of this.....you look up and see a cross. At that moment.....what would the cross symbolize? What does it represent?
It's not necessary that you answer this question publically Arthur, just be honest with yourself, and move forward from there.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2717
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well the bizarre fact in all of this is that no one seems to have mentioned that a simple pole sticking out of the ground is more a sexual phallus symbol than the cross ever was (which hasn't yet been proven to BE such).
Does no one remember the Asherah poles (link)?
Does no one remember the Egyptian Obelisk (link)?
Does no one remember the Roman cult of Phallus (link)?
Yehushuan
(Think people….think.)
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Well the bizarre fact in all of this is that no one seems to have mentioned that a simple pole sticking out of the ground is more a sexual phallus symbol than the cross ever was (which hasn't yet been proven to BE such). |
Yes, I considered, um, pointing out the obvious (Sorry about that).
In fact both Alexander Hislop's book, which Arthur seems to be convinced by, and Ralph Woodrow's book "Babylon Mystery Religion" which I read 25 years ago discuss Ashra poles, obelisks and such at length.
I looked up Alexander Hislop on wikipedia. That's an interesting read and I encourage all participating in this discussion including Arthur to look him up. An excerpt:
| Quote: | Hislop also makes some questionable linguistic connections and fanciful word plays, e.g. the letters IHS on hosts in Catholic Holy Communion are alleged to stand for Egyptian deities Isis, Horus and Seth, but in reality they are an abbreviation for Ihsous, the Latin spelling of Jesus's name in Greek (Ιησους), although popularly, they stand for the Latin Iesus Hominum Salvator meaning Jesus, Savior of Mankind.
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The following excerpt should tell you how credible Hislop's book is:
| Quote: | | Hislop is a favorite source of Jack Chick, who published reprints of his book, and Dave Hunt, who on occasion alludes to his work. While the book is mostly looked upon as a work of bigotry and conspiracy theory, it is still considered by some small sects as a definitive work of Protestant Christian apologetics. |
In a thread in the Viewpoints site where the question was asked "could the antichrist appear as a book author?" I responded that if he does, then surely Dave Hunt is his identity.
Ralph Woodrow eventually retracted the things written in his book.
Dust also makes an excellent point. Even if it were hypothetically true that in centuries past, the cross was a pagan symbol (and as I recall, Woodrow and Chick state that Constantine's vision of the cross was of an Egyptian Ankh, not the Christian cross so they don'e appear to share Hislop's opinion), that meaning, if it even existed, is long forgotten. It's now a symbol of redemption, of reconciliation, acceptance and hope.
The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, working its way through the lump until the whole lump is leavened.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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