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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: |
Ex-Gnostic Sir.
Are you gnostic?
Your Brother
John |
Nope. I'm not a member of any organized group. I am a completely independent Christian.
I read an article by some "church authority" that one cannot be a Christian unless he subjects himself to "proper church authority". Unfortunately, too many people fall for this nonsense. No church has any Biblical authority whatever. But, then, I digress.
It is interesting that gnosticism is only one of many positions around. Was there a particular defining reason why you gave up on gnosticism? |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
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Without any further ado, I'll move on with the spirit of this thread. Peace always Brother John.
The above scripture is from Proverbs chapt 8. This is a direct reference to Sophia and very gnostic in its approach.
Then there's the following from John Chapter 1 | Quote: |
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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There's more that I'm aware of, but I'll limit it to these quotes at this time. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent!!!
Thank you guys for posting Bible quotes to support your positions.
May I ask one further favor along these lines?
Since you sited these posts (for instance the quote of Proverbs 8)...could you share with us what your "Gnostic" interpretation and application of these verses are?? That would probably help us all understand where you are coming from and WHAT makes these verses so typical for gnostics to quote.
Thank you very much.
Your Brother
John
OH...
also
FOR PETE:
Sorry to put you off sir, but I DO intend to get to that, but much later.
thanks
Your Brother
John |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | May I ask, WHY is it that you consider yourself a gnostic, and only 'for the most part'??? In what way are you 'gnostic' and in what way are you not? |
I am not a part of any kind of Gnostic organization or anything like that. I just identify with a lot of it. There are a lot of negative things associated with Gnosticism that I wouldn't want to be associated with.
I will have to write more later, I'm short on time right now. |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Some reasons I consider myself a gnostic..
I believe that seeking "gnosis" is very important, and of course obtaining it even better. When I read Genesis, I see the creator as being, at least for the most part, a bad guy. I see the Serpent as being a good guy, and the eating of the fruit in Eden as being a positive thing. I think Sophia is an important person/being. I like Gnosticism, it is interesting.
I have a copy of the 'Gnostic Bible' and I read it. I disagree with many of the details, but I agree with the spirit of most of it. I like how the Gnostic writers are imaginative, and seem to be open about it. I like how they reveal their secrets, and attempt to explain their mysteries, instead of just alluding to them, or simply comparing it to a seed or something. And their clever twists on bible stories.
I am working on writing some Gnostic literature myself.
I'm having trouble recalling the negative stuff.. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Seeking knowledge is extremely important, but wouldn't you agree that not all 'knowledge' is equal?
If so, then WHAT knowledge, of what subject, is it that the 'gnostic' knowledge is supposed to concern?
Also: If you'll allow me an analogy, though people 'say' that "Knowledge is power", wouldn't you agree that this is incomplete? That knowledge, in a way, is like money? Money in the bank does nothing for you. Money you invest and spend wisely is all that matters. What's more, "POWER" is only power when it is expressed or spent to cause an effect. I can say that my musculature is "powerful", but until I display it by moving something heavy or opening tough pickle jars for my wife ....then my 'power' is nothing but the potential for power?
SO: If knowledge is only good or "useful" in its USE...
what 'use' does "Gnosis" (as gnostics understand it) effect? What does it accomplish and how??? What does its presence change? Why does this change matter?
IF "Gnosis" is a central feature of God's providence for us, then these are questions we must answer.
I FULLY associate with what Niall was saying earlier about hating blind, unquestioning, faith! To me that's not even 'faith', but lemming like ignorance. BLIND faith is a useless notion and serves no one nor nothing. However: Where we evidently differ is that I do not believe that God, scripture nor well informed mainstream Christians suggest we should EVER believe without testing without reason or sound judgement. I think that there ARE some things (probably many) that we simply cannot understand unless God makes us too.... ((therefore, I KNOW that "Gnosis" is an essential issue))....and that this is a by the grace of God, but the though the understanding isn't there, my TRUST of God on these issues is totally tested and well founded on certain evidence.
....and THAT (truth) takes NO 'creativity'. 
Thank you for considering & answering my questions!
May God Bless you!!!
Your Brother
John |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Adam_Love wrote: | Some reasons I consider myself a gnostic..
When I read Genesis, I see the creator as being, at least for the most part, a bad guy. |
I understand. The gnostic concept of "Iadalboth", the Evil creator God of the Old Testament.
But we know through the New Testament that ALL of creation was created by Jesus Christ, the WORD of God.
| Quote: | | John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. |
| Quote: | | 1 Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live |
| Quote: | | Col. 1:15-17 states He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. |
| Quote: | | Heb. 1:1-3 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person; |
| Quote: | | I see the Serpent as being a good guy, and the eating of the fruit in Eden as being a positive thing. |
Creator = evil?
Serpent who brought about disobedience and the onset of sin, separation from God, pain and death = good guy? ((by the way, JUST before biting in, Eve thought the same thing))
Fall of man (Separation from God, expulsion from paradise due to our OWN actions) = positive thing?
Could you please explain why?
thanks
Your Brother
John |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Adam_Love wrote: | There are a lot of negative things associated with Gnosticism that I wouldn't want to be associated with.
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You've got me SO curious!!
....What things do you consider 'negative' w/in Gnosticism?
Do you think, therefore, that these things are not 'True', or do you consider them true....but just things you don't want to dwell on??
PLEASE Understand:
I'm not wanting to condemn nor harrass you for your beliefs. I'm a lot like Niall in that I don't want to believe something JUST because I believe something, there's got to be some form of an evidence trail; some "reason" to establish it's veracity upon...
W/in a debate it's MOST helpful to understand where the other person is coming from.
I thank you for your participation!!
Your Brother
John |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | | Seeking knowledge is extremely important, but wouldn't you agree that not all 'knowledge' is equal? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | If so, then WHAT knowledge, of what subject, is it that the 'gnostic' knowledge is supposed to concern? |
spirit, divinity, God, other realms, great mysteries, things of that nature.
| Quote: | If knowledge is only good or "useful" in its USE...
what 'use' does "Gnosis"effect? What does it accomplish and how??? What does its presence change? Why does this change matter? |
I would disagree that knowledge is only useful in use.
Here I would compare it to love. If you have received love, do you necessarily need to "use" it? no. At the same time, you can have love that you wish to share with others, that, for sure would need to be "used".
So it can go both ways.
I think of it as a personal thing that you can experience, and it can change your soul, or spirit, or understanding or the universe. You can "use" that knowledge and try to help others to understand, but they would really have to experience it themselves to fully benefit from it.
It's not blind faith. It is a powerful feeling that can completely transform you, that you "know" is true in some other way that you have never experienced before that.
Or something. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Adam_Love wrote: | | what subject, is it that the 'gnostic' knowledge is supposed to concern? |
| Quote: | | spirit, divinity, God, other realms, great mysteries, things of that nature. |
| Quote: | If knowledge is only good or "useful" in its USE...
what 'use' does "Gnosis"effect? What does it accomplish and how??? What does its presence change? Why does this change matter? |
| Quote: | I would disagree that knowledge is only useful in use.
Here I would compare it to love. If you have received love, do you necessarily need to "use" it? no. At the same time, you can have love that you wish to share with others, that, for sure would need to be "used".
So it can go both ways.
I think of it as a personal thing that you can experience, and it can change your soul, or spirit, or understanding or the universe. You can "use" that knowledge and try to help others to understand, but they would really have to experience it themselves to fully benefit from it.
It's not blind faith. It is a powerful feeling that can completely transform you, that you "know" is true in some other way that you have never experienced before that.
Or something |
I have to admire your willingness to share! Thank you...
As to Knowledge and it's 'power'. I don't think that Love and Knowledge is at all the same thing or have commutive principles or qualities.
Love is an emotion, and as an emotion its very presence can motivate...which in itself is an action or verb if you will. Knowledge is not an emotion, nor does it, in itself, present or incorporate any emotion...only an interpretation of it can. Love can be demonstrated and truly has no 'use' outside of any action.
...doesn't necessitate 'action'. Then it's been "effected" by the other and given in some way....so it had an action. Reception of Love isn't about the reception so much as the sender and giver of that Love. Love cannot be known without being displayed or communicated in some way. (an action)
Love is only made real in action.
Knowledge is only of use in action, otherwise it is nothing.
Since you've said that your gnosis isn't 'blind' but is instead founded upon solid evidence and reason, could you please communicate to us What About : | Quote: | | spirit, divinity, God, other realms, great mysteries, things of that nature. |
..is different or unique to gnosticism that mainstream "Christianity" of today misses out on?
Also: As "Divinity" is the Knowledge of God, then why list "God" again?? Isn't that redundant? There is only ONE God.
Also: What are those "Great Mysteries" and "other realms" that gnosticism has to do with??
Thank you again for your openness. I appreciate it!
God Bless
Your Brother
John |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5037
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Please Adam_Love & Brother John let us know who you are quoting, & least on the first quote. I fixed them on this page.  I knew you were quoting each other but some readers won't.
Nobby |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: |
I don't think that Love and Knowledge is at all the same thing or have commutive principles or qualities. |
That is fine. love and knowledge are pretty abstract, and there aren't any strict rules, as far as I know, about how you have to interpret them. I am not trying to say, though, that love and knowledge are at all the same thing, just that they can be thought of as working out in a similar way.
| Quote: | | Love is an emotion, and as an emotion its very presence can motivate...which in itself is an action or verb if you will. Knowledge is not an emotion, nor does it, in itself, present or incorporate any emotion...only an interpretation of it can. Love can be demonstrated and truly has no 'use' outside of any action. |
I disagaree..in that I view it in a different way. You are welcome to see it your way, and you are not necessarily wrong.
I view Love as more than just an emotion. Also, the 'gnosis' type of knowledge seems to play out more as an emotion than, say, knowledge of sports statistics. If you haven't experienced it, you may not think it is helpful to describe in a similar way as an emotion.
| Quote: | | Since you've said that your gnosis isn't 'blind' but is instead founded upon solid evidence and reason.. |
I don't recall ever saying it was founded upon solid evidence or reason. It's more based on subjective personal experience that would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to prove. But I have experienced certein things, therefore I have strong faith in believing those things to be true.
| Quote: | | spirit, divinity, God, other realms, great mysteries, things of that nature. ..is different or unique to gnosticism that mainstream "Christianity" of today misses out on? |
I don't know.
| Quote: | | Also: As "Divinity" is the Knowledge of God, then why list "God" again?? Isn't that redundant? There is only ONE God. |
By divinity I mean anything divine. An angel can be divine. A saint. Heaven is certainly divine by my standards. That is all I meant.
| Quote: | | Also: What are those "Great Mysteries" and "other realms" that gnosticism has to do with?? |
It's a lot to get into. And a lot of it may simply be symbolic or meant in a "spiritual" sense.
Have you read the Gnostic scriptures?
| Quote: |
Thank you again for your openness. I appreciate it! |
No problem. Thanks for your discussion. |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you.
Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him,
Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. |
This comes from The Gospel of Judas, considered by many to be a gnostic text. I've posted it as an example of scriptures dealing with spiritual realms and great mysteries. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | Excellent!!!
Thank you guys for posting Bible quotes to support your positions.
May I ask one further favor along these lines?
Since you sited these posts (for instance the quote of Proverbs 8)...could you share with us what your "Gnostic" interpretation and application of these verses are?? That would probably help us all understand where you are coming from and WHAT makes these verses so typical for gnostics to quote.
Thank you very much.
Your Brother
John
Your Brother
John |
how about I just provide further information on what Sophia is from the gnostics view.
Sophia, the Greek translation of the Hebrew "Hochmah" is the feminine personification of Wisdom. She is neither a goddess nor a new age creation of feminist theologians.
She was a real biblical person with more material on her in the OT (with Apocrypha) than anyone in the scriptures, except God, Job, Moses and David.
Sophia and the Demiurge
And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth.
This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother.... And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said: I am God and there is no other God beside me, for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come. -- The Apocryphon of John . (NHL-110/IV,1 10:7-20)
Sophia-Achamoth is a very high spirit, an emanation (along with her consort, the Christ) of her mother, the Elder Sophia. They all live in the spiritual land beyond the earth called the Pleroma. Gazing down into the world of matter, the younger Sophia sees reflected there a transcendent light. Drawn by desire to possess this light and duplicate its image she leaves her heavenly consort, the Christ, and descends into the world of matter.
There she rushes about, hovering to and fro, trying to impart life to the chaotic inert elements. Finally she becomes helplessly immersed in mud, unable to extricate herself. Nevertheless, just by sheer contact with matter, she produces a being -- an odd, lion-faced entity, whom she calls Ildabaoth (Ilda, child; Baoth, chaos). When she sees the imperfection that she has produced, she realizes she has acted in ignorance. She escapes from the lower space and builds a strong barrier, or veil, between the world of spirit and the world of matter. Ildabaoth is, therefore, the "son of darkness" who cannot see that there exists anything above him.
Ildabaoth is ambitious and proud but despite his many imperfections he has captured some of the pure light from his mother Sophia-Achamoth. In his domain he produces seven sons, declaring himself the highest God, demanding they do only his bidding and exalting himself above them.
In his great ambition Ildabaoth decides to create a man after an image he had seen reflected in the waters of space. He employs all the powers of his various creations, but the creature proves a failure, helpless and ignorant and crawling on the ground like a worm. So he is forced to call on the help of his mother who sends him an impulse of divine light. This animates the man and he rises to life.
But seeing the newly made creation soar higher and higher because of the spiritual light from Sophia, Ildabaoth flies into a rage of jealousy. Angrily staring into the deep abyss of matter, his image is reflected back to him and there arises a serpent with eyes flashing red. It is Satan, the Ophiomorphos (having the form of a serpent), an embodiment of envy and cunning. After this Ialdabaoth encases his creations, symbolized in Adam and Eve, in mud to keep them closely tied to the earth. He builds for them the Garden of Paradise, giving them all of the gifts therein. But lest they taste death, he forbids them to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Sophia-Achamoth, from her kingdom above, is always watching over and protecting humanity. Seeing the world that Ialdabaoth has fashioned, she sends her own serpent, the Ophis or Agathodaemon (a divine instructor), who induces Adam and Eve to taste of the forbidden fruit of knowledge. Though they are cast from the Garden of Eden, and do indeed learn the sorrow of death, the divine wisdom stays with them through every trial of worldly life.
In the final act, after watching mankind struggle through aeons of pain and conflict, constantly pursued by Ialdabaoth's cunning, Sophia-Achamoth begs her mother, Sophia the Elder, to send the Christ to help humanity in its unending torment. It is through his crucifixion and resurrection that the kingdom of matter is finally subdued and Ialdabaoth's reign of blindness comes to an end. From his throne in the heavens the Christ continues to reign, collecting all of the souls who have triumphed like him, each one freeing a portion of light encased in the kingdom of matter. |
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