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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5881
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | I'm sorry, what other interpretation do you get from "but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart"? |
Hmmmm....maybe you have a point. Let's try a few more.
.....the land filled with milk and honey.....
(hope God fitted them with wading boots)
...........on this rock, I will build my church........
(hope it's a mighty big rock, otherwise we will be seated like sadines in a can)
.........I am the bread of life..........
(somebody call the funny farm, this man thinks he's a loaf of bread)
How many more examples do you want? |
Pointing to uses of metaphor in scripture? How is this relevant?
It should be relatively easy for you to just explain why you're disagreeing.
| eleven wrote: | | Ga head. I dare ya to asks me that question again after the examples I just gave you. |
Okay, "but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart" is metaphor. Pharaoh's heart didn't literally stiffen up. It's a metaphor for God making Pharaoh stubborn.
Of course, I never claimed that it was literal, so I fail to see what pointing to other metaphors has to do with anything.
| eleven wrote: | Well gee.........stop and think a second. Why would God send TEN plagues? And each time have Moses ask for the release of the Israelites? And after the last one, when they are finally released, PHAROAH, not GOD changes his mind (please note that) and goes after the Israelites AGAIN.
Exodus 14: 5-6
5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7
Pharoah changed his mind! That demonstrates that he had full ability to decide the fate of the Israelites. It doesn't say Pharoah's heart softened, or Pharoah woke up. It says HE CHANGED HIS MIND! That is significant. |
Ah, good old context.
14:11 The Lord spoke to Moses:
14:2 “Tell the Israelites that they must turn and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you are to camp by the sea before Baal Zephon opposite it.
14:3 Pharaoh will think regarding the Israelites, ‘They are wandering around confused in the land – the desert has closed in on them.’
14:4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them. I will gain honor because of Pharaoh and because of all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So this is what they did.
14:5 When it was reported to the king of Egypt that the people had fled, the heart of Pharaoh and his servants was turned against the people, and the king and his servants said, “What in the world have we done? For we have released the people of Israel from serving us!”
14:6 Then he prepared16 his chariots and took his army with him.
| eleven wrote: | | What do you think is gonna happen? I can guarantee you, you are gonna harden my heart. But did you (FFT) in actuality DO anything to me? No. It was you that hardened my heart towards you and anyone who supports you - especially if it is gonna take away from me and my dreams, but did you actually DO anything to me? No. |
So, uh. When it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart, does that mean he showed himself up and was annoyed by it?
It's a great apologetic you've got there but it falls apart when applied to the text as a whole. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
I take that dare. If the bible doesn't literally mean that the lord hardened the pharaoh's heart, then what does it mean? (and how do you know?) |
Excellent question!!!
How do you know?
God is described as being slow to anger, infinite in grace and mercy, and giving unconditional love. And we know this is true because of Jesus. So, when you come across a passage such as Exodus, one has to wonder- how can this be? This doesn't sound like the God of mercy if He's screwing up Pharoah's heart and head.
Therefore, it is OUR interpretation of it that must be at fault, not God in the Bible that is at fault.
So then, being very intrigued, one MUST go deeper to find out how this all fits together (entire Bible), and it is then that you find your answers.
People continually make the mistake of thinking that because the Bible is a collection of books, they can compare one book against another, or the OT to the NT and so on. Not true. You have to study the entire Bible (both testments) and realize that it interconnects in order for it to make any sense at all.
Who ever takes hold of a any book ever written, rips one part of it out and says, oh this can't be, so I'll just disregard that part of it? Yet people do this routinely with the Bible. If you truly want to understand it, you can't dissect it.
Like Jesus said, seek and ye shall find. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
Pointing to uses of metaphor in scripture? How is this relevant?
It should be relatively easy for you to just explain why you're disagreeing. |
Alright. The question was raised, how can the statement
"God hardened Pharoah's heart" be taken any other way then what it says. It seems God somehow "zapped" Pharoah into being a tyrant, unable to make any decisions for himself.
How cruel! Even if Pharaoh wanted to relent, he didn't have the power to do it! BUT Is that what happened? No, that's not what happened at all.
God didn't do anything to Pharoah other that just being someone who Pharoah couldn't stand. Pharoah's heart was hardened by his own ego, pride, greed, jealously, and desire for ultimate power. God invading Pharoah's territory is what hardened his heart, yet God didn't perform any "wizardry" on him.
Look, we use these same types of expressions in every day culture. If I say, FFT blew my mind, did you actually do anything to me?
Or if I say, everytime I see John Doe, he makes me sick!
Did John Doe actually DO anything to me, or is it this person's presence that I resent? My reaction comes from within me, not from John Doe.
But watch this now, because it goes much deeper.
Because of Pharoah's hardened heart, it is appropriate to say that Pharoah himself now becomes a slave. He is a so much a slave to his own mind, that even though it brings suffering to him and his people, he won't even let himself go. You have to remember, Pharoah is not dealing with God directly, he's dealing with Moses - another man. Which only hardens his heart even more.
So just like the Israelites had to suffer under slavery, NOW Pharoah is suffering UNDER HIS OWN SLAVERY.
Great tie in here to the NT-
You reap what you sow.
Or how about,
The truth (there is only one God, and Pharoah, you ain't it) will make you FREE.
| FFT wrote: |
14:11 The Lord spoke to Moses:
14:2 “Tell the Israelites that they must turn and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you are to camp by the sea before Baal Zephon opposite it.
14:3 Pharaoh will think regarding the Israelites, ‘They are wandering around confused in the land – the desert has closed in on them.’
14:4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them. I will gain honor because of Pharaoh and because of all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So this is what they did. |
Again....is this what God did to Pharaoh deliberately, or is God telling Moses what is going to happen because God, being God, already knows how stupid Pharoah is, and God is merely foretelling it?
| Quote: |
14:5 When it was reported to the king of Egypt that the people had fled, the heart of Pharaoh and his servants was turned against the people, and the king and his servants said, “What in the world have we done? For we have released the people of Israel from serving us!”
14:6 Then he prepared16 his chariots and took his army with him. |
Please notice it says, "What have WE done, not, What did God do to us!
If you put that together with Moses going back to Pharoah repeatedly demanding for the captives release, it becomes clear that Pharaoh really did have a choice, and that he wasn't in some uncontrollable state.
| FFT wrote: |
It's a great apologetic you've got there but it falls apart when applied to the text as a whole. |
On the contrary, not only does it do the exact opposite, it ties the entire Bible together in so many ways.
And the only "apologetic" I am offering is for the insane way religious leaders have been teaching scripture since the time of Jesus, because even then, with Jesus Himself explaining it, they couldn't get it right!  |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Let me take another stab at it...
Sometimes intent can be the key to defining acts of cruelty. Depends on the viewer's perception. For example if I do an act, that I do not perceive as cruel, then its not cruel from my perspective.
The one however on the receiving end, could consider it cruel.
Others watching could consider it cruel or not.
so let's add to intent, perception..... |
So how do we make the determination if 'God is cruel' or not if it is a matter of perception? Do we vote on it?
If a parent disciplines their child and the child feels that the parent is 'cruel' for restricting them from watching TV, does that in fact make the parent cruel? I think not. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5881
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | God didn't do anything to Pharoah other that just being someone who Pharoah couldn't stand. Pharoah's heart was hardened by his own ego, pride, greed, jealously, and desire for ultimate power. God invading Pharoah's territory is what hardened his heart, yet God didn't perform any "wizardry" on him. |
Exodus
10:11 The Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, in order to display these signs of mine before him,
14:4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them. I will gain honor because of Pharaoh and because of all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So this is what they did.
You're incorrect.
| eleven wrote: | | Again....is this what God did to Pharaoh deliberately, or is God telling Moses what is going to happen because God, being God, already knows how stupid Pharoah is, and God is merely foretelling it? |
"I will harden his heart" is not something that can be interpreted in the way you'd like to interpret "but the Lord hardened his heart."
| eleven wrote: | | Please notice it says, "What have WE done, not, What did God do to us! |
How would Pharaoh or his subjects know that the Lord was messing with him?
| eleven wrote: | | If you put that together with Moses going back to Pharoah repeatedly demanding for the captives release, it becomes clear that Pharaoh really did have a choice, and that he wasn't in some uncontrollable state. |
How? Because Moses kept coming back that somehow means that Pharaoh had a choice even when the Lord Himself claims that He's going to harden his heart?
| eleven wrote: | | On the contrary, not only does it do the exact opposite, it ties the entire Bible together in so many ways. |
Which is great and all but the God of the OT is quite different from the God of the NT. They don't mesh cleanly. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | .
So how do we make the determination if 'God is cruel' or not if it is a matter of perception? Do we vote on it? |
LOL no we don't vote on it. But now we're getting to the crux of the argument and I've been waiting for you to finally come around to it.
| RevJP wrote: |
If a parent disciplines their child and the child feels that the parent is 'cruel' for restricting them from watching TV, does that in fact make the parent cruel? I think not. |
Obviously no. Let me provide one (example), closer to the temperament of the god in the OT and you comment if you will without another question......
A child does something that makes the parent livid. Instead of sitting the child down and discussing it the parent flies off the handle and kills the child. Is this cruel? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Obviously no. Let me provide one (example), closer to the temperament of the god in the OT and you comment if you will without another question......
A child does something that makes the parent livid. Instead of sitting the child down and discussing it the parent flies off the handle and kills the child. Is this cruel? |
Strawman. Your 'question' does not apply to the God of the OT at all.
Try again. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2455
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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To take you analogy and make it more representative of what God does try this...
God as a parent tells his kid what is not to do, and for the next 30 years does exactly that , warns him repeatedly that he will die if he continues to do it, through his authorized representatives (the prophets) still that kid does the same thing. What level of cruelty is this?
The cruelty is in the delay isn't it? Giving this recalcitrant kid the idea that He (God) wont do what He says He will. Or is it mercy giving the kid time to overcome this error in his ways?
Depends upon the kid doesn't it? |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | Obviously no. Let me provide one (example), closer to the temperament of the god in the OT and you comment if you will without another question......
A child does something that makes the parent livid. Instead of sitting the child down and discussing it the parent flies off the handle and kills the child. Is this cruel? |
Strawman. Your 'question' does not apply to the God of the OT at all.
Try again. |
Sure it does, just as much as your analogy does. You may want to stick your head in the sand, but god of the ot has done this more than once. That is kill the children.. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | 14:4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them. I will gain honor because of Pharaoh and because of all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So this is what they did.
You're incorrect. |
No I'm not.
| Quote: |
Exodus 8: 15
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
28 Pharaoh said, "I will let you go to offer sacrifices to the LORD your God in the desert, but you must not go very far. Now pray for me." |
Now pray for me? This is an admission of sin. Pharaoh KNOWS that HE is doing wrong and is weak in the flesh.
| Quote: |
Exodus
29Only be sure that Pharaoh does not act deceitfully again by not letting the people go to offer sacrifices to the LORD."
32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go. |
Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Pharaoh. Period.
The only role God had in the heart hardening process was by being who He is, and nothing more. God didn't have to DO a thing to Pharoah. Pharoah was an egotistical tyrant who was so full of pride and hate that God didn't have to do anything but show up. His presence alone is what hardened Pharoah's heart, nothing more.
How do I know? Because Jesus is testimony to God's unconditional love, and God never changes. So He was the same God then, as He is now.
So if you WANT to believe that God somehow voodoo'd Pharoah's mind to show off, be my guest. I will pray for you because you clearly don't understand who God is.
The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. There is no other.
But the beauty of it is, that doesn't even matter. Because God is going to love the crap outta ya FFT, no matter what you believe.
(and there's nothing you can do about it)! |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | Obviously no. Let me provide one (example), closer to the temperament of the god in the OT and you comment if you will without another question......
A child does something that makes the parent livid. Instead of sitting the child down and discussing it the parent flies off the handle and kills the child. Is this cruel? |
Strawman. Your 'question' does not apply to the God of the OT at all.
Try again. |
| Deuteronomy 21:18-21 wrote: | If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
| Deuteronomy 21:18-21 wrote: | If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. |
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Ahhhh.........the good ol' days.
Oh well. I guess I should be grateful that I have only TWO kids. It coulda been worse. They coulda been twins!
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Deu 21:18-21 -
The formal accusation of parents against a child was to be received without inquiry, as being its own proof. But the consent of both parents was required as a prevention of any abuse of it; for it was reasonable to suppose that they would not both agree to a criminal information against their son except from absolute necessity, arising from his inveterate and hopeless wickedness; and, in that view, the law was wise and salutary, as such a person would be a pest and nuisance to society. Thus the just authority of the parents is recognized and effectually upheld (compare Exo_20:12; Exo_21:15, Exo_21:17; Lev_20:9); but the extreme and irresponsible power of life and death, conceded by the law of Rome and other pagan nations, is withheld from the Israelite father. In this, as in the last law, provision is made against the abuses of a necessary authority. The punishment was that to which blasphemers were doomed [Lev_24:23]; for parents are considered God’s representatives and invested with a portion of his authority over their children.
I suppose one could blindly snip out portions of scripture which seems to support their false assertions, if one chooses to make no attempt to understand what that portion of scripture actually says, or means. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Biblically, this is the conditional (marked by the word "if"):
| Quote: |
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them |
This is what you do if the conditional is satisfied (marked by the word "then"):
| Quote: | Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. |
I suppose you could clutter up the works by assuming (note the phrase "it was reasonable to suppose") that they would not both agree to a criminal information against their son except from absolute necessity, arising from his inveterate and hopeless wickedness", and of course, if you're going to make excuses like this one, it would be a great comfort to hide behind the rationale that "the law was wise and salutary, as such a person would be a pest and nuisance to society". I mean, if you are going to try to do as the bible says when it's asking you to do something cruel, you're going to have to justify it to yourself somehow. I suppose this means you're pro-death-penalty, seeing as how you're claiming these words for your own. Of course, that's another topic altogether. We tend not to kill pests or nuisances to society any more. That would be cruel, especially if there were some other underlying and fixable problem, which would mean they may not be 'hopelessly wicked'.
But I suppose one could blindly copy-paste portions of other people's commentary on scripture which seems to support their false assertions, if one chooses to make no attempt to understand what that portion of scripture actually says, or means. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Deuteronomy 21:18-21 wrote:
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. |
hmm..
Mat 17:14 ¶ And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a [certain] man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Mat 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Under the law, the parents brought their son to the church, and according to the law he was to be condemned. They did not fast or pray for him. They did not seek the Lord. They saught the law and the law condemned him.
Under Grace, the parents brought their son directly to the Lord, and according to mercy and grace he was to be forgiven and healed.
Why was it that in the first example those who were under the law did not seek the Lord, did not pray, nor have mercy on the son?
In your own heart..what would you do?
If this was your son.
Knowing that the law would condemn your rebellious son to death..would you seek some other alternative?
Maybe go to the judge himself and ask for mercy?
Which version holds true in your own heart?
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Isa 30:1 ¶ Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
Isa 30:8 ¶ Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
Isa 30:9 That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD:
Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Isa 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
They had the law but they had no faith. If they had had faith then they would have judged with righteous judgment and have shown mercy. But these were bent on murder and death and it never entered into their hearts to seek the Lord for help.
In what way the son was rebellious it says not. What if his rebellion was against the way that they interpreted the law? What if his rebellion was the same as Jesus's rebellion when He told his parents that he must be about his father's business.
What if they had taken him before the law at that time?
What if his parents, mary and joseph had no knowledge of his purpose or design or whether he was speaking the truth or a lie?
Mary had been given great grace and mercy and with this gift she was able to also bestow upon her son.
But what if mary and joseph had been these parents under the law in the OT?
Would that have made them rebellious parents by not submitting him to be stoned?
You read it, you hear it, you can judge both circumstances..(thank God we have the liberty to do so!),
Now you decide from your heart which is the better way?
Because we no longer are chained to the law of condemnation and death, we are able to grasp the truth of mercy and forgiveness in ourselves (which is a gift in itself)..and to be able to discern between what is good and what is evil.
So what would you do if this was your son?
and your answer will be according to how you percieve God to be..because it is his spirit within you speaking to your heart. |
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