Laws and institutions of men

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

God says that we should obey the rulings of those who are in authority. This is an important doctrine that is confirmed in several places in the bible. Paul advises those who are slaves to do their work well, and not to rebel, but to become free if they have a chance. Peter urges us to obey those in authority. Solomon says not to argue with a judge about the law. Most famously of course, Jesus submits to the rule of the sanhedrin, Cesar, and his representatives, and to the voice of the people who call for his crucifixion. So there can be no doubt that it is right to obey the "laws of land".
But watch out for the switcheroo. If you blink for just a second you'll miss it, and just about every church has done just that, so I'm sure you've been taught to think in false terms about the application of this principle of obedience to human laws and institutions.
The switcheroo is that what most people think of as legitimate authority is not the real authority. A false system, which is not the real human authority, has claimed to speak for the people. I'll go into details once anyone here is interested to hear, but for now, let's just put it this way. You should obey your Father, but what if a liar comes to you saying he was sent by your Father, who said to do this or that?
I declare here today that the masses of people have been deceived by a worldwide conspiracy to falsely represent true authority. The perpetrators of this conspiracy are now able to rule the world, and they have deceived even the faithful. Most preachers, almost all preachers, teach obedience to the false leaders, which are not true authority, and to the false laws.
Their courts, their institutions, their officers... we must take a stand and bravely declare the truth, which is that the earth is the Lord's, and that he has given it to his chosen.
Today, God's people are the true human authority - sovereign, independent. Any other claim to authority is a lie, and in fact they are law-breakers and outlaws who proclaim and seek to uphold the false regime - babylon.
Let's chat, with God as our witness, in the spirit and knowledge of truth and love.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject:

Hi Vibrate,
I'm sure there are some who would like to discuss this with you, but I think this will have to be moved to a different forum.
This one here is for introducing oneself.
hugs
lone

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Yes, thanks. I'm a little confused by the system here but working it out. I've reposted this message under "Bible Debate Forum". Hope it works.

Please if anyone would like to discuss this, let's do it under the "Bible Debate Forum".

45degreeN · Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:45 am Post subject:

Every born again Christian has the Holy Spirit within him witnessing to the truth. This authority, this spirit of truth, tells us when some external authority is an agent of Satan.

Jesus never truly placed Himself UNDER the authority of the Sanhedrin, nor of the agents of Caesar. His purpose was to come to Earth to provide a sacrifice that was worthy enough to free all of His children and in that quest those authorities co-operated so it appeared like He co-operated with them when in fact He gave His life voluntarily. (this is according to the law for the sacrifice to be a valid and accepted before God)

We can choose to follow God's authority instead of following Earthly authorities and if in doing so it means we lose our lives than so be it. It is an act of faith and a witness to the world. This is where our very own Spiritual witness comes in. The Holy Spirit can lead us in ways that others just don't understand, that is why it is so important not to judge too quickly.

The last thing to note is that there was no democracy anywhere on Earth during the 1st century. No place like we have today where freedom to follow one's conscience existed. God could see ahead to a time when many people would be sacrificed to this earthly mindset and for the most part they went to their doom without anxiety or panic. They knew that they would wake up in eternity with special credit in God's eyes for having made the ultimate sacrifice.

So please dont hit me over the head with this "obey civil authorities" My leader is Jesus Christ and His kingdom not this earthly place.

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Thanks for that comment. It is true that Jesus didn't put himself under anyone's authority, but that their decrees were in accord with God's will. I didn't mean to suggest that Jesus became less than sovereign, only that society wasn't advanced enough to conform to his correct position of glory. Ideally, they should have listened to him (to his words) but instead they had to obey God's will according to the principle of sacrifice, so that Christ could enter into his glory. The system wasn't set up in such a way to allow the leaders to give him the rightful glory directly, like maybe by appointing him ruler in some ceremony.
Today, things have advanced significantly, since Jesus shamed the rulers of the earth. But make no mistake, the secular kingdoms of today are just as destructive and anti-Christian as ever. Only the labels have changed, since Jesus shamed them into changing the labels, and the methods.
Does anyone today really believe that there is true democracy in any secular regime? The only regime that has true democracy is the kingdom of God, and no secular regime today has officially submitted to God's sovereignty. Mammon has a new motto, which says: "In God we trust." But talk is cheap. In fact, the system is still set up in a way that is carnal, and contrary to God's Way. So as with Pilate, they obey God's law only indirectly, and not freely, or officially.
This is an important topic for the church, because you'll find points of view that vary a lot. My concern is that by and large Christians still want to trust big brother as much as possible, and try to legitimize his occupation. What this teaching campaign does is weaken the Church, since those who misconstrue the true character of the false secular regimes become because of their ignorance powerless to resist, and powerless to apply God's law practically in the earth, as God tells us we should.
God's people are dying and suffering for lack of knowledge. We need to understand the truth about these systems, so we can take an active stand and become leaders instead of followers, the head and not the tail.
The Torah teaches us that when people do wicked things we should punish them, and that others will then be afraid to go against the teaching of God. But today evil is perpetrated with impunity. Illegal wars, trampling human rights, abuse of power in every way imaginable, lobbying by corporations for special interests, and worst of all abortion. In the midst of all this, most Christian teachers still say we should "wait on the Lord" and "turn the other cheek". Didn't Jesus also say to walk with a sword? Didn't God promise to give us the nations as our inheritance? Time to rise up and stop living in fear. Identify yourself as a free human being, and no longer as the subject of any secular authority.

45degreeN · Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:21 am Post subject:

I think you mis wrote this

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

No, that wasn't a miswrite.
The law of God is basically about equal rights and justice. Everyone's voice has equal weight, based on the importance of what he is saying, and its truth. Also, in God's kingdom the people rule themselves. God is not a dictator, but a ruler who "dwells among his people" and leads us from the inside. So the kingdom of God, while remaining a theocracy, is indeed a democracy. There is no voting, per se, but voting is not what makes a democracy a democracy.
In fact the voting system that is practiced by false systems around the world today is not democracy at all. This is one very important area of evidence why these regimes that are chosen according to these systems are false, and are not really the true human authority. They are charlatans and the whole system of voting, franchise etc is false.
Jesus explained that one who commits sin is a slave of sin, so this means that the only way to vote democratically is to vote in the way that God tells you to. Unless everyone who votes in an election is doing what God told them, and unless everyone who is affected by the regime votes, it is not true democracy. Please think carefully about this.
I could of course go deeply into the reasons why the systems labeled as democratic are not really democratic. Political Scientists know all about it, too, so you can do research if necessary. But common sense should be enough. God didn't ordain these regimes, so they are false. That should be enough, right?

saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject:

Vibrate said:

HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:11 am Post subject:

Hi Vibrate. Nice thread! Smile

Plotinus · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:34 am Post subject:

Hi Vibrate. Welcome to the forum.

45degreeN · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:54 am Post subject:

In a 'perfect' theocracy there are no dissenting voices and the idea that somehow there is anything but what God wants is BS. Whether or not anyone actually wants to dissent from the total dictatorial sovereign's point of view is moot it will not exist.

Heaven is no democracy. Ideally God will enforce this by invading every single person's soul and use them all as an extension of Himself. Since God is just and ideally perfect there will be nothing that needs dissent so, again it is moot.

Will there be sin in heaven? So where will the dissent come from? When everything conforms to the likeness of God how could there be anything but perfect peace and conformity with God's will. Explain how democracy operates in a system such as that! It doesn't.

The confusion lies in the various attempts at theocracy here in human lead countries. Like the Islamic countries. Dissent is present there in spite of the dogmatic ideal that it doesn't. They are not heaven in by any comparison. Some might call them Hell in fact.

Since God is the source of all that is good, including life itself what need is there to vote? Our Earthly governments try and make us believe they are such a thing, but even the best fails miserably in comparison. NO we need to get over this idea that there is some comparison between Earthly governance and heavenly governance it is simply not the same.

NO democracy in heaven!

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Hi 45DegreeN. We're not saying different things, but you're misunderstanding me. I agree with your comments all the way.
It's a different kind of democracy to what we see in the secular systems. I have used the word in a broader sense that what you have interpreted. Usually, people use the word to apply to voting, and a system of parties which do not see eye to eye. But I was going back to the original meaning, which is simply rule by the people.
The way God leads his people is by the power of His Spirit, through His Word. That's a democratic process, according to the original definition of what democracy is. The tradition of voting, as you rightly say, is not relevant to God's kingdom, since we are all in one accord. Please note that the one man one vote system is just one specific form of democracy, and in fact it is a false one... but that's another story altogether.
God reasons with His people, and teaches us. Think about the dynamics of this process of teaching, and you'll see that it is fact democracy, but you have to understand that democracy is not defined as voting, and conflict, as you have obviously assumed. I suppose that is what they teach in the world about democracy, and if I had realized that I may have chosen my words more carefully, I suppose.

45degreeN · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:56 am Post subject:

As I understand you there is no reason for dispute..

Even America is not a democracy (it is a republic) and yes it is important to use words carefully, I've been shot down for using them incorrectly also.

The principles of civil disobedience are such that if we see an unjust law or condition we can set ourselves as an example and take whatever punishment is directed by a jury, setting precedent for others. This is merely one way to get things changed here in the US.

Usually we go to our representative and hope that they will be willing to re-write the laws. Lately this method has been failing us regularly because they look to whoever pays them the best first, not the principle of rightness.

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject:

what do you think of this, concerning America, the IRS, and the church of Laodecians?

HERE

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77