fulfilling the law

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

Jim,
Again I sense that you have had an encounter with a deeper truth.

God Bless and keep seeking the King

45degreeN · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:10 am Post subject:

Until Christ came, there was no one qualified to take the sins of mankind away. According to the law it took:1) a perfect life (this is the only way it can work)2) willingly allowing Himself to die for our sins (cant be forced to do it) 3) actually doing it (not swooning, like some prefer to think but actually dying)
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JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

45,
The one thing that I always wondered about was why they required the animal sacrifice in the Old Testament since it was imperfect. I recognize the fact that they did it because it was commanded or required of them and that it was to remind them of the hope to come, but yet, when Jesus died on that cross they rejected the very notion of Him being the Messiah.
Praise God for the blood of Christ.

keep seeking the King

MoJo · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:31 am Post subject:

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

MoJo,
Was there ever a point that the Old Testament sacrifice was important to God? Or was it more important to God to try to help the Israelites recognize the condition of their hearts by the quality of their sacrifice?

JB

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 628

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

JimD,
I think of Abraham when he was willing to sacrifice his son. Think about it. Abraham believed that God had the power to raise a person from the dead or he would have never been willing to make that sacrifice. God made promises to Abraham that would be fulfilled through his son. If Isaac had died and not risen again, then God's promise wouldn't have been untrue. But Abraham believed God.

JB

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 628

45degreeN · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject:

JimD We haven't forgotten this. There are many different "Pictures of Christ" throughout the Old Testament.
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lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject:

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

I always get curious about this:

Exd 8:25 And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, sacrifice to your God in the land.
Exd 8:26 And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?

what is the abomination of the Egypians..?

Gen 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, [and] also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd [is] an abomination unto the Egyptians. #Suspect

Isa 56:11 Yea, [they are] greedy dogs [which] can never have enough, and they [are] shepherds [that] cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Jer 25:34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves [in the ashes], ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer 25:35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape.

Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:8 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

Zec 11:3 [There is] a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.
Zec 11:4 ¶ Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
Zec 11:5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed [be] the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.
Zec 11:6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver [them].
Zec 11:7 ¶ And I will feed the flock of slaughter, [even] you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

I think this goes along the lines with:

2Cr 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour [you], if a man take [of you], if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

so just taking a different take on it all..because I just like to look at things from all angles..

These unblemished perfect sheep that was being sacrificed for their sins..are how they judged these sheep by the outward appearance. They saw no blemish, they saw perfection..but what were they really sacrificing to God?

I believe they was sacrificing eachother for their own righteousness sake.
I also believe that those things that were done in the OT are as parables. And in the NT we can see the truth of what they was really sacrificing.
And the parables that Jesus spoke in the NT are clearly seen in the OT.

Concerning the passover lamb..

Jhn 11:49 And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest (shepherd) that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Jhn 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Jhn 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Jhn 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

what's interesting though is that the sacrificial lamb was to be without blemish and perfect. But what did "they" see? They saw a blasphemer, a law breaker, a devil...
and they were willing to sacrifice "demons" to God.
when in truth all along they had been sacrificing that which was evil but looked good..and now they were going to sacrifice that which looked evil but was good..

just looking at things upside down..I do that sometimes..
Rolling Eyes

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 628

Lone, I am finding it difficult to understand your post Embarassed

Nana, where are you, don't give up on us, Jesus hasn't, I hope Exclamation

_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

Lone,
That was a very insightful post. I am going to a meeting in about ten minutes, but I would like to take a closer look when I get back.
The sheep appear perfect that they sacrifice, but the unblemished sacrifice looked blemished. WOW>

How different our eyes our than that of God.

That was awesome.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject:

Sorry JimD.. Embarassed

I'm trying brother.. Wink

I'll try again from here:

Concerning the passover lamb..

Jhn 11:49 And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest (shepherd) that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Jhn 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Jhn 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Jhn 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

what's interesting though is that the sacrificial lamb was to be without blemish and perfect. But what did "they" see? They saw a blasphemer, a law breaker, a devil...
and they were willing to sacrifice "demons" to God.
when in truth all along they had been sacrificing that which was evil but looked good..and now they were going to sacrifice that which looked evil but was good..

1Cr 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Caiaphas had known that Jesus was the lamb of God, they would not have killed him. Caiaphas was the high priest that year but he wasn't speaking about himself as the perfect sacrifice..
It is expedient for us..that the whole nation perish not..
and for those who are scattered..

those who seek to save their lives shall lose it..and those who lose it for my sake shall find it..
Caiaphas was not willing to sacrifice himself for the people even though he was "placed" in the position of "perfection"..high priest. He placed the burden on another for to save himself.

Mat 23:1 ¶ Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Problem was..God was watching..
these are the shepherds spoken of by the prophets.

Up until the time Jesus was sacrificed as the lamb of the passover they had been sacrificing what looked perfect but was tuly blemished in God's eyes.
When they sacrificed Jesus, Jesus fulfilled the law by being the perfect sacrifice. But they didn't know it.

He laid his own life down for the sheep, the very thing Caiaphas should have been willing to do for the people.
He was anointed, he was sanctified, he was righteous in the eyes of the law...but he put that burden on another.
One who in the eyes of men was a devil, a blasphemer..
but in the eyes of God..wisdom is justified by her children.

Before Jesus..what were they sacrificing to God?

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject:

Exd 16:3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, [and] when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

thinking eye for eye and tooth for tooth..hmm

Mic 3:1 ¶ And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; [Is it] not for you to know judgment?
Mic 3:2 Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
Mic 3:3 Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.
Mic 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Mic 3:5 ¶ Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Mic 3:6 Therefore night [shall be] unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
Mic 3:7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for [there is] no answer of God.
Mic 3:8 ¶ But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.
Mic 3:9 Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.
Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.
Mic 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, [Is] not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Mic 3:12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed [as] a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

another thing I find curious is the judment of stoning people for their sins..
The first time it's mentioned is here:

Exd 8:26 And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?

watch this..

Lev 18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

so how could they keep the law if they were following after the doings of Egypt which God told them not to do?

Jhn 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Leviticus 18:3...but they didn't hear his voice..

I started this thread because I'm looking for all the things in the law that was not fulfilled in the law of Moses and Jesus himself came to fulfill.
And we are told that the law shall not pass away until ALL Things are fulfilled. So I'm looking for ALL Things.. Wink

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 628