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Where is the Great Crowd of Revelation 7?



 
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RR
Little Guppy



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37

Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Where is the Great Crowd of Revelation 7? Reply with quote
What is the JW scriptural reasoning as to who is this "Great Crowd" and where their final destiny is?

"After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."
Re 7:9 NWT

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hand." Rev 7:9 KJV
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TBax
King of the Jungle



Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1903
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RR,

Being before God or the throne doesn't mean they are in heaven.

Acts 10: 33 Therefore I at once sent to you, and you did well in coming here. And so at this time we are all present before God to hear all the things you have been commanded by Jehovah to say.”

Rev show these individual are humans, mankind.


Rev 7:15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them

Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Very Happy
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RR
Little Guppy



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37

Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TBax wrote:
Rev show these individual are humans, mankind.
No more human than the 144,000 who redeemed from the earth.
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TBax
King of the Jungle



Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1903
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
RR,

According to Rev 21, the FORMER things pass away. If they take place on earth now then that is where they pass away. Cool

Rev 21:21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

First we see a new heaven and a new earth. New government and a new society of humans. How is this society different? The sea of turbulant wicked mankind is no more. Isa 57:20
Next New Jerusalem, or God's kingdom, is coming down out of heaven. Coming down to where??????? To another part of heaven? Hardly, as God's tent is now with mankind. And then the condition we now experience will pass away, including pain and death.


The 144,000: These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, Rev 14:4

Such ones are resurrected as spirit creatures, not humans.
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RR
Little Guppy



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37

Location: USA
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree with everything you presented in your last comment TB. I disagree that the Great Crowd is an earthly class. I believe it is a heavenly class. The 144,000 serve ON throne, the Great Crowd serve BEFORE thrones.

You said "Being before God or the throne doesn't mean they are in heaven." True, but we need to be consistent. Why is it that you believe that the 24 elders, the angels, the 144,000 are literally BEFORE the throne, yet the great crowd is not?

RR
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TBax
King of the Jungle



Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1903
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RR,

Both spirit creatures and humans can be before God.
This great crowd come out of the great tribulation. What does that mean to you? To me it means they survive through that time. That great tribulation take place on earth. These ones survive through it thanks to God and Jesus. The part of the scripture that ties in with Rev 21 is in reference to the "tent of God" and "wiping away tears".

Rev 21:3“Look! The tent of God is with mankind...4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes

Rev 7:15 and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

If you agree that Rev 21 is talking about mankind, or humans, then Rev 7's reference to the great crowd is also about humans who serve in the earthly courtyard of the temple. The similarity is dead on. Very Happy
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RR
Little Guppy



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37

Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bax wrote:
RR, Both spirit creatures and humans can be before God.

Agreed.

TBax wrote:
This great crowd come out of the great tribulation. What does that mean to you? To me it means they survive through that time. That great tribulation take place on earth. These ones survive through it thanks to God and Jesus. The part of the scripture that ties in with Rev 21 is in reference to the "tent of God" and "wiping away tears".

I believe that the great crowd (company or multitude) are a class who will receive a spiritual inheritance. They are seen standing before the throne of God and before the Lamb, they are clothed in resurrection white robes and have the palms of prior victory in their hands. It is significant that they stand before but are not seated upon a throne (see Rev. 3:21). They are spoken of as an unnumbered class of individuals, not as an innumerable or unlimited assembly of people. We see a contrasts between the Great Company and the 144,000.

Verses 9- 10 refer to those who ran for the prize of the High Calling, immorality, but fail to attain it. They lose that prize but not their lives: they continue to be virgins, and by faithfulness under further trial, win the palm branch as a sign of victory, and thus attain to membership in the Great Company, which no man can number: that entitles them to a spiritual resurrection and to service in the temple of the future. (See Ezekiel 44:10- 14.)

TBax wrote:
If you agree that Rev 21 is talking about mankind, or humans, then Rev 7's reference to the great crowd is also about humans who serve in the earthly courtyard of the temple. The similarity is dead on.

The similarities are only the same if you put the picture in heaven, not on earth. The great crowd which no man can presently number, is the antitypical Levite class. If you recall, Jehovah spoke to Moses about His typical people: “Thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among of representation and are counted, as it were, the Israel of God indeed. As Jehovah anciently favored natural Israel with the designation “You only have I known [recognized] of all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2), so here in Revelation (verse 4), the 144,000, are figuratively elevated to a similar status and to a closer relationship than that granted previously to Israel or that given later to the Great Company, the children of Israel” (Num. 1:49). The great crowd are selected out of all nationalities (verse 9) in a manner similar to the call of the Very Elect (144,000) (Rev. 5:9,10 RSV); yet the Elect are considered on a higher level.

RR
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TBax
King of the Jungle



Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1903
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RR,

I appreciate your explaining your belief. Very Happy
So you believe these one are killed or die during the great tribulation? That isn't how the scripture puts it. But they come out of that troubled time.

Their robes are white because they wash them clean in the blood of Jesus. It doesn't indicate these one recieved them as a result of a resurrection. Confused or disgusted

RR wrote:
The similarities are only the same if you put the picture in heaven, not on earth.


???


The Bible tells us the purpose of the 144,000 going to heaven, or are bought from the earth. They are the kings and priests over the earth. The Bible doesn't indicate another group going to heaven or any purpose they would serve.


Very Happy
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