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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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To Yehu & Niall-
can we please keep on topic? Being snide toward one another won't help any of us have a good / open discussion.
Niall-
I used Hitler ONLY because:
* His mindset poses a dichotomy with that of Dr. M. L. King, and their approaches to life are NOT compatible; JUST like Gnositicism is totally incompatible with the actual teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.
* Adolf Hitler's outlook on life was one of elitism, where only certain peoples were even worthy of life or concern. In Gnosticism, women are degraded as "not worthy of life"...and therefore must be changed into men.....
and that which they claim saves (Gnosis) is attainable only by the VERY few. (the Elite)
that's all.
Don't get so hung up on whom I used for the comparison, check out the differences it points out.
The Real gospel is incompatible with gnosticism.
Christ died for ALL, not few.
Few will respond, but that's not from HIS end, it's ours.
Your Brother
John
PS: What about my three questions I began all of this with?? |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Niall
since I'm the one asking that we stay on topic, let me clarify:
1. What is gnosticism?
2. What is gnosis?
NOTE: This question is probably WAY too simplistic. How about this; what are it's attributes? We know what the word itself means. But how does one:
Seek it?
Find it?
Obtain it?
Keep it?
What all does it DO for you?
What does it 'produce' in your life BEYOND just salvation, as you suppose?
What is your obligation or responsibilities toward it?
In light of IT, what are your obligations toward God and your fellow man??
IN ANSWERING THESE: Can you site instances from the BIBLE that clearly back this up??
Can you do this explaining WITHOUT needing to refer to Anything in the Nag Hammadi codices? (After all, GOD is not 'confused', if ONE portion of His instruction to man says one thing, then no other portion of His instruction to man can contradict it...otherwise God is 'wrong' and a 'liar'....and that cannot be.)
((Each of these things CAN easily be answered for the Doctrine of "Faith & Grace"...which is the Christian doctrine diametrically opposed to the gnostic concept of "gnosis"....therefore it must be equally answerable for gnosis.))
3. HOW do you square the teachings of Gnosticism with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and His disciples as revealed in the New Testament?
Also:
It's bad manners to answer someone's question by merely saying "See what I said over yonder....."
IF it's relevent here, please answer it where it was asked.Otherwise, I'll simply take it that you don't have an adequate answer.
Thank you for your participation
Your Brother
John |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: |
Also:
It's bad manners to answer someone's question by merely saying "See what I said over yonder....."
IF it's relevent here, please answer it where it was asked.Otherwise, I'll simply take it that you don't have an adequate answer.
Thank you for your participation
Your Brother
John |
Actually its not bad manners to direct someone to another topic already being discussed in another thread. In most discussion arenas it's usually the desired method.
You want to stay on topic as much as possible, then you contradict it by telling me I'm being impolite. Really John...
I added the gnostic thoughts of the trinity to a previous person's description of mainstream gnosticism (if there really is a mainstream). That person did a very good job. I had no reason to go there. It's not my belief although you seem to think otherwise.
Sometimes I don't answer not because its not adequate, but because its something I really have no interest in responding to. Maybe its a dead horse imo. Or maybe I've simply over looked something that otherwise I might engage in.
Its interesting you want me to engage in a debate, but all by your rules. Very containing/controlling don't you think.
Sorry John, but i don't think I want to engage in a debate where I'm not permitted to use quotes or sources that I might desire. Seems that you're just trying to force your beliefs upon me and for me to present them from your belief system.
I guess based on your logic, you cannot adequately address scriptures that I've quoted from your "real bible".
And concerning what Yehu and I discuss, be it snide sarcastic etc. there's absolutely no animosty on my side towards him. Not really any of your biz from my perspective.
I understand the type of discussion you would, and its not for me.
So with that said, I've decided to bow out from this discussion..... Peace! |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | | To number three, I only ask a question: Can you help us by siting where in the Bible the concept of "Gnosis" is located and what scripture teaches us about it? (I agree with your point, but I'm wondering what YOU think the actual 'gnosis' of the Bible is) |
For this particular discussion I would rather refer to the whole, which is greater than the sum of it's parts. With that said, in reference to the concept-of-gnosis, the Bible indicates that there is false gnosis and true gnosis.
True gnosis, of course, being in-line with all Biblical scripture. I would say that this sort of gnosis is purest when processed tacitly. However, those possessing true gnosis in a tacit manner, seem to gain conscious insight on certain points/matters, from time to time....only. This is limited, of course, by all that affects conscious thought, such as impurities of sorts. A man may gain great insight on a particular matter(s), at one point in his life, but then have that clairity muddled by things, and cares of the world.
So, IMO, those who profess to have such knowledge consciously, and in a continuous manner, have only layed-hold of an impure and false sort of gnosis. And those who would make a religion out of this, error immeasurably. |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Many authors I have come across writing about Gnosis and Gnosticism point out how difficult it is to describe and how few people agree on an exact definition. Having said that, I'll take my stab at the three questions.
2. What is the nature of "Gnosis" as understood in Gnosticism?
Wikipedia does a pretty good job of putting it into words:
"Gnosis is the spiritual knowledge of a saint or enlightened human being. It is described as the direct experiential knowledge of the supernatural or divine. This is not enlightenment understood in its general sense of insight or learning, but enlightenment that validates the existence of the supernatural."
It is like enlightenment, but I would describe it more as an essence than a process or the experience itself. Experience is key to obtaining gnosis, but it is not the experience itself that is 'gnosis'.
1. What is Gnosticism?
There are many forms of Gnosticism, each having its own set of beliefs. It's really hard to define. Many religions have offshoots that could be described as Gnostic. Gnostic groups can be found in Christianity, Judaism, Neo-Platonism, Manicheaism, Zoroastrianism, and other groups.
3. Does Gnosticism line up with the doctrine's of the New & Old testament without contradiction?
Nothing can line up with the New and Old Testament without contradiction, mainly because the NT and OT contradict each other, and have a great many of their own contradictions.
There are definitely verses in the Bible that are compatible with a Gnostic viewpoint, and all scripture could be reinterpreted in a gnostic way. |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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These verses from the NT have a very gnostic flavor:
Luke 17:20
"And when [Yeshua] was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Mark 4:11
"And [Yeshuah] said to them, ‘To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that “they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand"
I forgot to add, I, for the most part, consider myself to be a Gnostic. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | Brother John wrote: |
Also:
It's bad manners to answer someone's question by merely saying "See what I said over yonder....."
IF it's relevent here, please answer it where it was asked.Otherwise, I'll simply take it that you don't have an adequate answer.
Thank you for your participation
Your Brother
John |
Actually its not bad manners to direct someone to another topic already being discussed in another thread. In most discussion arenas it's usually the desired method.
You want to stay on topic as much as possible, then you contradict it by telling me I'm being impolite. Really John... |
Niall-
Just like yourself, from the sounds of things, I've been active for years on forums such as this. It's been my experience that when you ask a question of someone, then you get a reply from that person. What I was asking you to do was to make your case here.
IF every time the doctrine of "Saved by Grace" were to be used as a point in an argument, then should I always point them back to the first post I ever made in which I laid out my thoughts on it?
Seems that'd get cumbersome.
I wasn't off point by pointing out I thought your approach to be a somewhat rude, but I'm sorry if that's how it came across. Not my intent.
| Quote: | | I added the gnostic thoughts of the trinity to a previous person's description of mainstream gnosticism (if there really is a mainstream). That person did a very good job. I had no reason to go there. It's not my belief although you seem to think otherwise. |
What isn't your belief? The trinity, or mainstream gnosticism? Probably just me, but I'm not clear on this.
If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.
| Quote: | | Sometimes I don't answer not because its not adequate, but because its something I really have no interest in responding to. Maybe its a dead horse imo. Or maybe I've simply over looked something that otherwise I might engage in. |
I understand, honestly.
See that's why I wanted to include what you've determined are "all my rules". I tried to put those in place so that this discussion could remain a true debate in which people could argue the points of different cases and different view points w/out things getting personal or off track....as threads like this have a strong tendency to do both.... badly. I tried to establish a 'tone' and not so much "rules".
Again: in the many other forums that I'm active in, whomever begins a debate or thread "owns it"...as in, can set down what they'd like to achieve or how they'd like it to go. IF people disagree with these, they're free to complain to the admins and/or create an alternate thread on the subject, but without the other person's parameters.
Please let me know, Niall (or anyone) what parameters I set that are TOO constricting. It wasn't my intention to set up a strangle hold on the discussion, but to hope to keep people from attacking or slighting others just because their views are different.
| Quote: | | Its interesting you want me to engage in a debate, but all by your rules. Very containing/controlling don't you think. |
No Niall, I honestly don't think so. What I tried to inhibit wasn't your freedom to express, but I tried to set things up that'd give both of us (and any others) the freedom to have a MATURE competition of idea and concepts.
Seriously: I'm very sorry you see them as controlling.
Please let me know which ones you don't like and I'll write up a retraction so maybe we can move forward anyway.
| Quote: | | Sorry John, but i don't think I want to engage in a debate where I'm not permitted to use quotes or sources that I might desire. Seems that you're just trying to force your beliefs upon me and for me to present them from your belief system. |
...hold on Niall...
no one ever said you were not permitted to use quotes or sources of your choice.
What I asked you was
| Quote: | IN ANSWERING THESE: Can you site instances from the BIBLE that clearly back this up??
Can you do this explaining WITHOUT needing to refer to Anything in the Nag Hammadi codices? (After all, GOD is not 'confused', if ONE portion of His instruction to man says one thing, then no other portion of His instruction to man can contradict it...otherwise God is 'wrong' and a 'liar'....and that cannot be.)
((Each of these things CAN easily be answered for the Doctrine of "Faith & Grace"...which is the Christian doctrine diametrically opposed to the gnostic concept of "gnosis"....therefore it must be equally answerable for gnosis.)) |
I didn't say "Nowhere in this debate can you quote from anything but what we Christians deem is the BIBLE.
I simply asked if you were able to explain how Gnosticism without needing to site gnostic texts. IF you're not able, that's fine....my question is answered.
| Quote: | | I guess based on your logic, you cannot adequately address scriptures that I've quoted from your "real bible". |
again, maybe it's just because I'm so sleepy, but Ya Lost me here....
what quotes of yours from the Bible am I not supposed to be able to deal with?? Maybe I overlooked something. Please do me a favor: point them out. If I overlooked a question of yours, please point it out and I'll do my best.
| Quote: | | And concerning what Yehu and I discuss, be it snide sarcastic etc. there's absolutely no animosty on my side towards him. Not really any of your biz from my perspective. |
hmmm....
through reading and lurking here a Lot, I've seen repeated heated word jousts between the two of you and they almost always divert the thread off topic and onto other things and name calling....etc.
I was really hoping we could rise above that here.
You're both above that, I think.
| Quote: | I understand the type of discussion you would, and its not for me.
So with that said, I've decided to bow out from this discussion..... Peace! |
I'm VERY sorry you feel that way Niall, but I think you've got me wrong....
but there's no way to prove that to you on an internet forum.
I hope you change your mind, but if not...
see you round the monkey bars! 
Your Brother
John |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2466
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | To Yehu & Niall-
can we please keep on topic? Being snide toward one another won't help any of us have a good / open discussion. |
Ja wolt!
(Actually, Niall and I weren't being snide - just joking with one another. At least I hope he saw it that way.) |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Adam_Love wrote: | These verses from the NT have a very gnostic flavor:
Luke 17:20
"And when [Yeshua] was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Mark 4:11
"And [Yeshuah] said to them, ‘To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that “they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand"
I forgot to add, I, for the most part, consider myself to be a Gnostic. |
THANK YOU for your contribution to the discussion Adam_Love!!
I also appreciate your candor.
May I ask, WHY is it that you consider yourself a gnostic, and only 'for the most part'???
In what way are you 'gnostic' and in what way are you not?
Thanks
Hope everyone's having as good a day as I am!!!
Though it's rainy, I got some sun-shine INSIDE!
((It helps a LOT when your sweet little girl wakes you up with hugs and kisses!!))
Praise God!
Your Brother
John |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 3. Does Gnosticism line up with the doctrine's of the New & Old testament without contradiction? |
| Adam_Love wrote: |
Nothing can line up with the New and Old Testament without contradiction, mainly because the NT and OT contradict each other, and have a great many of their own contradictions. |
I couldn't disagree anymore strongly than I already do toward this opinion of yours...
but that's another subject.
..but I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
Your Brother
John |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Brother John wrote: | To Yehu & Niall-
can we please keep on topic? Being snide toward one another won't help any of us have a good / open discussion. |
Ja wolt!
(Actually, Niall and I weren't being snide - just joking with one another. At least I hope he saw it that way.) |
Of course I see it the same way as you Yehu. I know you were kidding and so was I. As I've stated before, I enjoy your posts and our discussions. You're an interesting person. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | Yehushuan wrote: | | Brother John wrote: | To Yehu & Niall-
can we please keep on topic? Being snide toward one another won't help any of us have a good / open discussion. |
Ja wolt!
(Actually, Niall and I weren't being snide - just joking with one another. At least I hope he saw it that way.) |
Of course I see it the same way as you Yehu. I know you were kidding and so was I. As I've stated before, I enjoy your posts and our discussions. You're an interesting person. |
If I misjudged the both of you in this, I am sorry.
Honestly...
I'm still new HERE and hope to keep arguments hearty but STRIFE low...
part on Garth
Your Brother
John |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| John: why did you ask the original question? Are you a Gnostic Catholic? |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2466
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | | If I misjudged the both of you in this, I am sorry. |
Oh gosh don't let it worry you.
If it wasn't for my sense of humor I wouldn't have any sense at all.
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | John: why did you ask the original question? Are you a Gnostic Catholic? |
Ex-Gnostic Sir.
I'd been involved with different "gnostic" orders for sometime...until I saw the light.
now...
I 'know' better.
the reason I started this thread is that I'd been involved in another thread where Niall had asked a question concerning the so-called "gospel of Thomas"...or a quote that came from it. The subject of the validity of that book and the validity of Gnosticism in general started taking over that thread, but it was "Off Topic" for the subject of the thread, so I thought I'd start this one off to address this subject.
Are you gnostic?
Your Brother
John |
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