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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the topic is about the definition of 'cruel', which this J.I. Packer guy quoted in the OP totally makes up in order to make his point.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6094
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Let's get back to the topic at hand, which is not the Israelites leaving Egypt. |
Sure, that's not the topic. The topic is whether or not God is cruel. Thing is, one can point at Exodus as a part of this topic. It's quite within the topic of "is God cruel?" to point at a particular part of the Bible and say "well, yes."
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | There are atheists and agnostics who argue that the God who is presented in the Bible is cruel. By labeling God as cruel, they are appealing to our human, moral sensibilities. The word “cruelty” is defined as "callous indifference to, or pleasure in, causing pain and suffering.” The question before us now is: Is God cruel? To answer in the affirmative, we would have to allow that God either doesn’t care about pain and suffering, or He actually enjoys watching His creatures suffer.
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I think you can add arrogant, jealousy, indictiveness, double standard and indifference to reference.
First of all, my thoughts are based on the OT version of god. I'm not going to go into all the countless times the god of the OT has been evil. Just a few for thought.
1) Was god cruel when he set up Adam and Eve for failure? Was it necessary to plant the tree of knowledge of good and evil, life in the garden, then telling them they should never eat of those trees less they die? Then placing a very smooth talking serpent in the mix to persuade Eve to partake of the fruit. Of course if god is all knowing, then he knew in advance this would be a failure. Why place the ingredients for failure, when it was completely unneccessary? Of course if this was just a metaphor and not a real event, it might make more sense. But if you take it literally, then god has a need to tempt humans. And we know that Adam had a long and fruitful life. Then god lie to Adam and Eve? Seems so...
2) Christians rationalize that god is all knowing and we can't possibly know what he thinks, and that he loves us and what he does is for the betterment of Christandom. Now when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge, the scriptures tell us that they knew what the gods knew. Hmm seems we should have a better view of what god really is then. Instead of rationalizing, take the events for what they are, cleansing of people and cruel actions. We certainly don't tolerate that type of behaviour from our own, why should we worship a god of the same ilk?
3) Lets briefly discuss Sodom and Gomorrah. The wo angels only found one righteous person living in Sodom, Lot. Consequently, God destroyed the city. Righteous Lot... He offers the 2 angels his daughters, but the refuse. Lot and family flee the city. Lots wife gets turned to a pillar of salt? Why because she looked? Then righteous Lot gets drunk, then sleeps with his daughters. Great guy that Lot is. It must have been a real mess in the cities, if Lot and his family were the righteous ones..
4) Thou shalt not kill. How long did that commandment last? Moses goes up the mountain. God provides Moses the commandments, that are not to be broken. Meanwhile god sees what the people are doing in the valley and god gets angry. He wants to kill them all. Moses asks god to repent. Asks god to repent? Would you ask god to repent? Well god complies. Interesting that god thought he was doing something wrong as well. Well Moses goes down. Then he gets mad, then god gets mad with him (again). Moses said if you're not with me, then we will kill you. And Moses and his men do. Bloody mess.. thou shalt not kill.... There must be exceptions to the thou shalt not kill rule. Jealousy, rage, people and their god with anger management problems.
Practice what you preach god. If god was the all onipotent being that he supposedly is, then eating from the fruit should have gave us love, kindness, compassion etc. Of course we are capable of that, but we are also capable of the bad traits that god gave us. Giving us those bad traits..kind of a cruel joke on us.... The world would be a much better place without those bad traits. I'm just a lowly human and I can realize that. God's world doesn't make much sense. There could be a much better one.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6903
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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I asked:
| Quote: | | So, anyone who causes another pain or suffering, or allows another to suffer, is cruel? |
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I asked:
| Quote: | | So, anyone who causes another pain or suffering, or allows another to suffer, is cruel? |
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Yes, if that is their intent to do so.
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RevJP
Moderator
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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So 'intent' is the key to defining cruelty?
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | So 'intent' is the key to defining cruelty? |
No intent is the key to one being cruel not the definition of cruelty.
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand. I asked if 'intent' was the key to defining cruelty, I said nothing about it being the definition of cruelty.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
11:9 The Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh will not listen to you, so that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.”
11:10 So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not release the Israelites from his land. |
OH PLEEEAAAASE!!! Don't tell me that you are going to say that God put Pharaoh into some stupified funk, which gave him no choice whatsoever. That is so ridiculous, it barely warrants an answer!!!
| FFT wrote: |
So yeah, God killed them. Murdered them, in fact (except for the whole apologetic that nothing God does can be murder since He defines it blah blah blah). God Himself prevented Pharaoh from letting the Hebrews go so that He'd look awesome ("so that [His] wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt"). It's in the text.
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Baloney! You are purposely twisting it to suit your argument. Go deeper, for crying out loud. You are as bad those fundamentalists on here that say they Bible must be taken literally word for word. I know you know better than this.
| FFT wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | Let me give you a story that relates. During the second world war, it was commonally understood that churches were not to be touched. It was considered the root of evil to fire on a church. Yet eventually, soldiers learned that they could fire at the enemy better from the steeple of a church, because it was considered off limits. So then, who was the dasteredly one? The one that fired on the chruch, or the one that hid in the steeple to ambush the enemy? |
This story doesn't relate in the slightest. |
It most certainly does. Our misunderstanding of the exodus makes it look like God was a murderer, and He most certainly was not. Those people died because of Pharoah's pride and jealousy (hardened heart). He had the power to stop it, and refused. Let's put blame where blame is due.
The way you are telling it, if a crazed gunman hold someone hostage, it's the cop who is the murderer for killing him and freeing the hostage. Get real!!!
| FFT wrote: |
I'm aware it wouldn't have just been newborns. But no Egyptians had any opportunity to repent, it was all down to Pharaoh and God prevented him from letting the Hebrews go. |
Again wrong. God preventing nothing, and anyone had the opportunity to repent. (See Rahab)
| FFT wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | Also, you have to remember, God never asks anything of anyone that He Himself does not give back. Jesus was God's firstborn Son also. And He sacrificed His life in the most horrendous murder of all times in order to save the very ones you are accusing God of being cruel to. |
It's not a sacrifice when you get it back. |
NO KIDDING!!! It's a gift.
Neither is is murder (firstborn) if they are still alive!
God so loved THE WORLD..........
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I don't understand. I asked if 'intent' was the key to defining cruelty, I said nothing about it being the definition of cruelty. |
Let me take another stab at it...
Sometimes intent can be the key to defining acts of cruelty. Depends on the viewer's perception. For example if I do an act, that I do not perceive as cruel, then its not cruel from my perspective.
The one however on the receiving end, could consider it cruel.
Others watching could consider it cruel or not.
so let's add to intent, perception.....
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The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6094
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | OH PLEEEAAAASE!!! Don't tell me that you are going to say that God put Pharaoh into some stupified funk, which gave him no choice whatsoever. That is so ridiculous, it barely warrants an answer!!! |
I'm sorry, what other interpretation do you get from "but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart"?
| eleven wrote: | | Baloney! You are purposely twisting it to suit your argument. Go deeper, for crying out loud. You are as bad those fundamentalists on here that say they Bible must be taken literally word for word. I know you know better than this. |
It's what it says. How else should it be interpreted?
| eleven wrote: | | Our misunderstanding of the exodus makes it look like God was a murderer, and He most certainly was not. Those people died because of Pharoah's pride and jealousy (hardened heart). He had the power to stop it, and refused. Let's put blame where blame is due. |
And hey, when the plagues start, certainly Pharaoh's hardening his heart against the Hebrews. But near the end it's God doing it. So yeah, blame where blame is due.
| eleven wrote: | | The way you are telling it, if a crazed gunman hold someone hostage, it's the cop who is the murderer for killing him and freeing the hostage. Get real!!! |
I'd say a more appropriate analogy is a Suicide Watch operator encouraging people to end it all.
| eleven wrote: | | Again wrong. God preventing nothing, and anyone had the opportunity to repent. (See Rahab) |
God hardened Pharaoh's heart to multiply His wonders in Egypt. He prevented Pharaoh from just letting the Hebrews go.
Where in Exodus are any of the Egyptian people other than Pharaoh given any opportunity to "repent"?
And what does Rahab have to do with the Exodus?
| eleven wrote: | | NO KIDDING!!! It's a gift. |
I believe there's a term we use for that sort of gift-giving.
| eleven wrote: | | Neither is is murder (firstborn) if they are still alive! |
Are they? Do you have anything in scripture to back you up on this?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6903
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Exo 11:8-10 And all these your servants shall come down to me and bow down to me, saying, Get out, and all the people who follow you! And after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in great anger. (9) Then the Lord said to Moses, Pharaoh will not listen to you, that My wonders and miracles may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. (10) Moses and Aaron did all these wonders and miracles before Pharaoh; and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's stubborn heart, and he did not let the Israelites go out of his land.
Two things FFT:
Wonders and miracles. You consistently talk about 'wonders' but avoid the real meaning of them being 'signs' or as better translated; divine signs.
and God also explained why He was demonstrating these 'signs':
Exo 10:1-2 THE LORD said to Moses, Go to Pharaoh, for I have made his heart hard, and his servants' hearts, that I might show these My signs [of divine power] before him, (2) And that you may recount in the ears of your son and of your grandson what I have done in derision of the Egyptians and what things I have [repeatedly] done there--My signs [of divine power] done among them--that you may recognize and know that I am the Lord.
I will also point out that Pharaoh's heart was already stubborn, so God hardening it only amplified what was already in existence.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6094
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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At least you'll admit it does, in fact, say what it says.
But why would God have had to harden Pharaoh's heart?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | I'm sorry, what other interpretation do you get from "but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart"? |
Hmmmm....maybe you have a point. Let's try a few more.
.....the land filled with milk and honey.....
(hope God fitted them with wading boots)
...........on this rock, I will build my church........
(hope it's a mighty big rock, otherwise we will be seated like sadines in a can)
.........I am the bread of life..........
(somebody call the funny farm, this man thinks he's a loaf of bread)
How many more examples do you want?
| FFT wrote: | | It's what it says. How else should it be interpreted? |
Ga head. I dare ya to asks me that question again after the examples I just gave you.
| FFT wrote: | God hardened Pharaoh's heart to multiply His wonders in Egypt. He prevented Pharaoh from just letting the Hebrews go.
Where in Exodus are any of the Egyptian people other than Pharaoh given any opportunity to "repent"? |
Well gee.........stop and think a second. Why would God send TEN plagues? And each time have Moses ask for the release of the Israelites? And after the last one, when they are finally released, PHAROAH, not GOD changes his mind (please note that) and goes after the Israelites AGAIN.
Exodus 14: 5-6
5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7
Pharoah changed his mind! That demonstrates that he had full ability to decide the fate of the Israelites. It doesn't say Pharoah's heart softened, or Pharoah woke up. It says HE CHANGED HIS MIND! That is significant.
Look at it this way. Let's say you and I are competing for some award. Let's say the Oscar award. I think I am the best, and I'm sure I am a gonna win this hands down. Suddenly you appear and demonstrate that you are much better at everything than I am. Not only have you demonstrated it to me, but you have demonstrated it to all my family and friends as well, not to mention my biggest fans. Actually, you've made me look like a total moron, and now you're gonna take my fans too????!?!?!?
What do you think is gonna happen? I can guarantee you, you are gonna harden my heart. But did you (FFT) in actuality DO anything to me? No. It was you that hardened my heart towards you and anyone who supports you - especially if it is gonna take away from me and my dreams, but did you actually DO anything to me? No.
| FFT wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | NO KIDDING!!! It's a gift. |
I believe there's a term we use for that sort of gift-giving. |
Oh do tell.
| FFT wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | Neither is is murder (firstborn) if they are still alive! |
Are they? Do you have anything in scripture to back you up on this? |
I gave it to you already.
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | I'm sorry, what other interpretation do you get from "but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart"? |
Hmmmm....maybe you have a point. Let's try a few more.
.....the land filled with milk and honey.....
(hope God fitted them with wading boots)
...........on this rock, I will build my church........
(hope it's a mighty big rock, otherwise we will be seated like sadines in a can)
.........I am the bread of life..........
(somebody call the funny farm, this man thinks he's a loaf of bread)
How many more examples do you want?
| FFT wrote: | | It's what it says. How else should it be interpreted? |
Ga head. I dare ya to asks me that question again after the examples I just gave you. |
I take that dare. If the bible doesn't literally mean that the lord hardened the pharaoh's heart, then what does it mean? (and how do you know?) Exodus 10:1-2 is God saying "dude, I totally hardened the pharaoh's heart so I could show these signs, which people will talk about how awesome I am for generations to come." However, you obviously think it's a metaphor, so I ask you, a metaphor of what?
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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