a Gnostic / Apologetic Dialog

Brother John · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: a Gnostic / Apologetic Dialog

First I would like to check your gnosis on Gnosticism.

Please state as simply (briefly) as you can:
1. What is Gnosticism?
2. What is the nature of "Gnosis" as understood in Gnosticism?
3. Does Gnosticism line up with the doctrine's of the New & Old testament without contradiction?

I hope we can use these simple questions as a starting point for a hearty and enlightening discussion!!

Please, I want to see what it is you know of the subject, if nothing....that's fine, I consider that the best place to start a foundation in which to build honest understanding.

NOTE: I ask that this thread remain
A: HONEST. Tell us what you know and think, w/out the fear that you'll be judged or condemned or laughed at.

B: LOVING. Respect each other. If you are attempting to argue against something someone says, do so without making personal attacks, no ad hominim JUNK. Make your point, argue AGAINST reasons, logic and rationale, while caring for each other.

C: ON TOPIC. (nuf' said)

D: PLEASE....site sources and/or give links.

I'll step back now and see how much interest there is in this thread.

Your Brother
John

ragman13 · German Shepherd Joined: 07 Jul 2007 Posts: 325

What is it?

Gnosticism. The Gnostics followed a variety of religious movements that stressed gnosis or knowledge, especially of one’s origins. Cosmological dualism was also a feature of the system—opposed spiritual worlds of good and evil. The material world was aligned with the dark world of evil.

During the second through the fourth centuries it was addressed as a major threat by such church fathers as Augustine, Justin Martyr, *Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Origen.
Early Sources. Irenaeus’s book Against Heresies provides extensive treatment of what Gnostics believed.
Teachings. Since Gnosticism lacked a common authority, it encompassed a variety of beliefs. Central to many, if not most, were:

1. a cosmic dualism between spirit and matter, good and evil;
2. a distinction between a finite Old Testament God, Yahweh, who was equated with Plato’s Demiurge or Craftsman, and the transcendent God of the New Testament;
3. view of creation as resulting from the fall of Sophia (Wisdom);
4. identification of matter as evil;
5. belief that most people are ignorant of their origins and condition;
6. identification of sparks of divinity that are encapsulated in certain spiritual individuals;
7. faith in a docetic Redeemer, who was not truly human and did not die on the cross. This Redeemer brought salvation in the form of a secret gnosis or knowledge that was communicated by Christ after his resurrection.
8. a goal of escaping the prison of the body, traversing the planetary spheres of hostile demons, and being reunited with God;
9. a salvation based not on faith or works, but upon special knowledge or gnosis of one’s true condition;
10. a mixed view of morality. Carpocrates urged his followers to engage in deliberate promiscuity. Epiphanes, his son, taught that licentiousness was God’s law. Most Gnostics, however, took a strongly ascetic view of sexual intercourse and marriage, contending that the creation of woman was the source of evil and procreation of children simply multiplied the number of persons in bondage to the evil material world. Salvation of women depended on their one day becoming men and returning to the conditions of Eden before Eve was created. Oddly enough, women were prominent in many Gnostic sects.
11. interpretation of baptism and the Lord’s supper as spiritual symbols of the gnosis;
12. view of the resurrection as spiritual, not physical. In the Nag Hammadi codices De Resurrectione affirms that
The Saviour swallowed up death. . . . For he laid aside the world that perishes. He changed himself into an incorruptible aeon and raised himself up, after he had swallowed up the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way to immortality. . . . But if we are made manifest in this world wearing him, we are his beams and we are encompassed by him until our setting, which is our death in this life. We are drawn upward by him like beams by the sun, without being held back by anything. This is the spiritual resurrection which swallows up the psychic together with the fleshly.

Sources
Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books. p273-275

How is that for a start?
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle

Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist!

Brother John · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject:

ANY time you 'begin' with Norman Giesler, you're off to a good start.

I appreciate you putting that up here for everyone to read. It's very accurate. (Something Brother Norman's known for) BUT....I was hoping to get more personal and know the member's of this websites views on it. Thank you for your good reference work though!
Maybe you could you address my third question from your own understanding then.

Thank you

Your Brother
John

Dust · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject:

1. Gnosticism is a term referring to folks who claim to have esoteric/mystic knowledge of God, among other things.

2. Gnosticism views gnosis as being esoteric and mystic in nature.

3.The concept of gnosis is present in the Bible, but is certainly not defined in Gnostic terms.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Yehushuan · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject:

Brother John · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject:

Brother John · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject:

Niall · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:04 am Post subject:

And I mention the concept of the trinity. The father, mother and the son, which was a common belief amongst gnostic-Christians before Constantine determined that the current Christian mainstream view of the Trinity would be the father, the son, the holy ghost. Constantine adopted it and labled other views as heretic in order to control the masses.

Don't shoot the messenger (me) LOL, just the message.
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The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God.

Niall · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:11 am Post subject:

Question about the Nag Hammadi documents.

For example, the gospel of Thomas. What purpose would portraying Yeshua as depicted be incorrect?
_________________
The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God.

Yehushuan · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:23 am Post subject:

Brother John · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:31 am Post subject:

Niall · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:43 am Post subject:

Niall · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:47 am Post subject:

Brother John, please see my post on Who did God Pro-Create with?

The scriptures clearly state his sons took human wives. It also says that god (elohim) made man and woman in his kind.

Then you must believe that god actually has a form. Lets make man in our image......
_________________
The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God.

Yehushuan · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:43 am Post subject:

Niall · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: