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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | How can you say that historical tradition should take precedence over accurate translation? |
Once again, you have missed my point on faith in the power and providence of God. I make no other distinction. The evidence shows that the KJV has God's providential stamp of approval. You can argue that point if you would like. Demonstrate how I am wrong perhaps?
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I wonder what you mean by "inerrant Word of God and that everything in it is correct?"
Are you asking if we know, or believe there to be no errors in scripture? Or are you asking about the true question as to whether the Bible is the infallible Word of God and contains His truth as He intended us to have it?
I find few people who are versed in scripture and doctrine who accept that there are no 'mistakes' in scripture, so the concern over 'copying errors' is insignificant for consideration. As Pete pointed out, comparative studies demonstrate that current translations are extremely consistent in meaning - isn't that the important thing?
Once again I would refer readers to look at the THE CHICAGO STATEMENT
ON BIBLICAL INERRANCY which I feel explains the understanding of 'inerrancy' and 'inalliability' quite well as it pertains to the beliefs of the Christian world.
That being said; if one wishes to argue the fringes of Christianity where there are those who believe that the Bible is completely without mistake and completely literal, then that should be explained before a lengthy debate gets underway. |
When you say "few people who are versed in scripture and doctrine who accept that there are no 'mistakes' in scripture", you are using an appeal to authority, which, keep in mind, you often cut P down for doing. Your use of this says that the experts agree that there are 'mistakes' in scripture. Mistakes, obviously, are not truth. I wonder what you mean by your punctuation there. Anyways, you are implicitly agreeing that there are mistakes in the bible, and you are stating that scripture is the truth as God wants you to know it, so you are saying God intends for you to have untruth as truth. I find it disconcerting that you are okay with this.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | And how do you know who this inerrant God is? |
Rom 8:14-16 KJV For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Mat 12:33 KJV Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Joh 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
That should answer your question - the same answer I've been giving to Mark Timber for years. Of course I could stop by and raise you from the dead. 
| Dust wrote: | | The evidence shows that the KJV has God's providential stamp of approval. |
And this exact same “evidence” is stronger for the Vulgate (which I despise just as much as the KJV). Your argument is made of dust. God is not a Pope needing to wave his imprimatur around.
Yehu
2Co 3:2 KJV Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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So, you trust some of the KJV, but not all of it?
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6094
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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One could say the same of any poor translation. Sure, there are bits that are translated well--that's not the problem
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | So, you trust some of the KJV, but not all of it? |
I know you do.
I was trying to be polite in answering your question from within your own definitional framework.
Unless you wish me to be obtuse and only post the Greek text.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | Plotinus, with all due respect, the only one I need looking over my shoulder is Jesus.
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Me too. Although sometimes my relationship with Jesus is mediated with some personal friend or acquaintance through whom Jesus' love shines particularly brightly.
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And with that said, I become intrigued. Has your wife ever been involved in New Testament translation? Perhaps she could lend some expertise here. I'm about to become more involved with gang negotiations between the Crips and the Bloods and shall find my time here rather restricted.
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She teaches classical scholars and a few studying for the cloth. NT translation is not one of her particular interests (sadly from my point of view).
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Wise words as always Plotinus. And I share in your disappointment. That's sort of like being married to an auto mechanic who won’t fix your car.
What online tools might she use of which I am unawares? (I become disillusioned with the new Perseus 4.0).
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | Wise words as always Plotinus. And I share in your disappointment. That's sort of like being married to an auto mechanic who won’t fix your car.
What online tools might she use of which I am unawares? (I become disillusioned with the new Perseus 4.0).
Yehu |
She uses Perseus off and on. However in her area, the relevant literature is best mined from library books at some of the better university libraries in the area. Classical scholars do a lot of weight training with bags of very heavy books in my experience.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6903
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | When you say "few people who are versed in scripture and doctrine who accept that there are no 'mistakes' in scripture", you are using an appeal to authority, which, keep in mind, you often cut P down for doing. Your use of this says that the experts agree that there are 'mistakes' in scripture. Mistakes, obviously, are not truth. I wonder what you mean by your punctuation there. Anyways, you are implicitly agreeing that there are mistakes in the bible, and you are stating that scripture is the truth as God wants you to know it, so you are saying God intends for you to have untruth as truth. I find it disconcerting that you are okay with this. |
It is actually a posting error, my mistake for typing too fast and not proofreading.
What I had meant to post was:
I find few people who are versed in scripture and doctrine, that accept that there are no 'mistakes' in scripture,
| Quote: | | Mistakes, obviously, are not truth. |
Unlike you though, I do not equate a 'spelling' error, 'punctuation' error, or some such, with untruth.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
| Quote: | | Mistakes, obviously, are not truth. |
Unlike you though, I do not equate a 'spelling' error, 'punctuation' error, or some such, with untruth. |
I do not equate spelling or punctuation errors as untruth and I'll thank you in advance for retracting that asinine comment. For the record, it was you who said "so the concern over 'copying errors' is insignificant for consideration." You discounted those in your discussion 'mistakes', which means the 'mistakes' you are talking about are more significant than that. My point remains the same.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6903
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | which means the 'mistakes' you are talking about are more significant than that. |
How so? Please demonstrate a 'significant' mistake.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have to:
| RevJP wrote: | | I find few people who are versed in scripture and doctrine, that accept that there are no 'mistakes' in scripture, |
Ergo people who are versed in scripture and doctrine, according to you, tend not to accept the idea of no 'mistakes' in scripture. It was your appeal to these experts that prompted this. It is also your assertion that scripture is the truth as God wants you to have it, 'mistakes' and all.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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JonMarie
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 635
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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P123... wrote:
| Quote: | | But that doesn't change the fact that the poor kid probably needed counseling for the rest of his life after his father tried to kill him, and that in the story, God caused that psychological trauma. |
That poor kid as you so called him, if you read the rest of the story, did not require counseling for the rest of his life. In fact he became a great man of faith and the father of Israel. God richly blessed his life.
PS if the Creator of the Universe was/is gracious enough to give us His instruction book for life here, and eternal life as well, don't you think He just might have the ability to protect it's truth's? |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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JonMarie,
It’s not an instruction book. It isn’t even written like an instruction book, outside of the Law of Moses. (And THAT was so poorly written that the Jews had to come up with the Talmud to discuss the confusing parts.)
And while we both revere the teachings of Jesus, are we not to be led by the spirit placed inside when we are baptized with the Holy Ghost (if indeed we are)?
Come, let us reason together. Which would you rather do? Worship God because He was/is gracious enough to give an instruction book?
Or worship God because He was/is gracious enough to place His Spirit inside of you?
Which is more important?
Joh 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
But why do you read this as if it says, “Howbeit when it, the Bible, is written, it will guide you into all truth"?
Really?
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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