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| Do you support: |
| Abortion on Demand |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| The Death Penalty for capital Crimes |
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[ 0 ] |
| Abortion but not the Death Penalty |
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50% |
[ 2 ] |
| The Death Penalty but not Abortion |
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50% |
[ 2 ] |
| Abortion and the Death Penalty |
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[ 0 ] |
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| Author |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I figured this follow of the OT, and I'm ok with that as I think it's a worthwhile discussion...
I guess I find it easier to understand those that are anti-abortion, anti-death penalty...that is at least sound on "Pro-life" under any circumstance...
It seems to me that P#s is taking an "individual choice" over "state choice", which I understand...however, that presents the state as a monolithic organism, vice being a vehicle of the people....what if the condition for the death penalty required a unanimous vote by a jury? Isn't that then the "will of the people"? How would that differ from Prisoner 1234 shanking Prisoner 456, which is what P#s seems to condone...
For me, the death penalty (or rather carrying it out in a timely manner, less the 15 year appeal process) is simply cost effective...
I was watching an MSNBC series last night...It was basically profiles of 6 convicts...bad dudes to a man, all serving life + or death sentences...those dudes were broken. Zero chance of rehab. Can we lement the "system" that created them? sure...Can we spend $$$ to try to reduce the situations that created them? sure....but could they ever be rehab'd? I don't think so.
In short...we shoot feral and rabid dogs....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3376
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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How strange. Abortion and the death penalty in the same poll. Are you advocating the death penalty for women who get abortions?
My question is tongue in cheek, of course, but it just struck me as strange.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | what if the condition for the death penalty required a unanimous vote by a jury?
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That's the obvious check against government power, but the system still allows for people to be framed and then legally (albeit unjustly) executed. Not good.
The United States is the only civilized country on Earth which still executes people. It's just not a civilized thing for governments to do.
| Pondering wrote: |
Isn't that then the "will of the people"? How would that differ from Prisoner 1234 shanking Prisoner 456, which is what P#s seems to condone... |
I don't condone it. I'm just arguing that between shanking and someone rotting in their cell, you don't really need the government to have to power to execute its citizens. The punishments are sufficient.
| Pondering wrote: |
For me, the death penalty (or rather carrying it out in a timely manner, less the 15 year appeal process) is simply cost effective... |
I think that the 'kill them because it's cheaper' argument is even worse than my highly imperfect solution.
| Pondering wrote: |
I was watching an MSNBC series last night...It was basically profiles of 6 convicts...bad dudes to a man, all serving life + or death sentences...those dudes were broken. Zero chance of rehab. Can we lement the "system" that created them? sure...Can we spend $$$ to try to reduce the situations that created them? sure....but could they ever be rehab'd? I don't think so.
In short...we shoot feral and rabid dogs.... |
Still, sometimes there are freaky cases where very bad people are rehabilitated. They seem to be rare, but it does happen.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Now I'm really confused.
P, you said
| Quote: | | Of course, the *most* civilized solution would be to rehabilitate serious criminals and have some kind of healing process for the victims which doesn't involve nasty punishments and the waste of a human life. |
then you go on to say:
| Quote: | The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a 'workable solution'. Rehabilitation programs are only as good as the amount of resources (money) that society is willing to put into them. If the people want tax cuts, then how on Earth could we possibly pay for rehabilitation programs??? On top of that, criminals definitely are not a priority for taxpayer spending in anyone's books. I'd rather see the money put into daycare programs, universal health care, libraries, the space program, and about 10 other things before spending it on criminal rehab.
And besides, we're talking about the worst of the worst among criminals here... Real scumbags and viciously evil human beings. It's far from clear that any reasonable percentage of them can be rehabilitated no matter how much money we throw at the problem.
Clearly this isn't an easy problem to solve. |
So then, it would be more 'civilized' to rehab the scum, but you basically say there is no way to do that. Why then the problem with execution? If nothing better can be implemented why not go with the current solution?
After all, we aren't really talking about punishment here are we? what execution is really all about is taking out the trash. Society has determined that certain criminals are not rehabilatable, that they can never recover a useful or desirable position in society, and that lifetime imprisonment is not that feasible economically, or socially. So the solution is what we do with anything rubbish - we get rid of it.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Now I'm really confused.
P, you said
| Quote: | | Of course, the *most* civilized solution would be to rehabilitate serious criminals and have some kind of healing process for the victims which doesn't involve nasty punishments and the waste of a human life. |
then you go on to say:
| Quote: | The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a 'workable solution'. Rehabilitation programs are only as good as the amount of resources (money) that society is willing to put into them. If the people want tax cuts, then how on Earth could we possibly pay for rehabilitation programs??? On top of that, criminals definitely are not a priority for taxpayer spending in anyone's books. I'd rather see the money put into daycare programs, universal health care, libraries, the space program, and about 10 other things before spending it on criminal rehab.
And besides, we're talking about the worst of the worst among criminals here... Real scumbags and viciously evil human beings. It's far from clear that any reasonable percentage of them can be rehabilitated no matter how much money we throw at the problem.
Clearly this isn't an easy problem to solve. |
So then, it would be more 'civilized' to rehab the scum, but you basically say there is no way to do that. Why then the problem with execution? If nothing better can be implemented why not go with the current solution?
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Because incarceration is better than execution for several reasons. I already said this!
Also, I accidentally hit the red exclamation mark on your post. I dont think that I reported your post, but in case I did, it was an accident!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hitting the report button doesn't do anything until one hits the submit button so no worries there
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| P wrote: | | Because incarceration is better than execution for several reasons. I already said this! |
Now I'm really confused. You say incarceration is better than execution, but you described in detail how evil incarceration and all that comes with it, is. Yet you still claim the horrendousness of it and the underlying idea of vengeance behind it, is better than execution. How so?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P wrote: | | Because incarceration is better than execution for several reasons. I already said this! |
Now I'm really confused. You say incarceration is better than execution, but you described in detail how evil incarceration and all that comes with it, is. Yet you still claim the horrendousness of it and the underlying idea of vengeance behind it, is better than execution. How so? |
The three main reasons why life sentences are better than executions are:
1. It's a very bad idea to give a government the right to kill its own citizens.
2. Executions are uncivilized. Taking a human life is a serious thing, and all but one of the civilized countries on Earth have stopped performing them. You as a Christian should agree with this. After all, the Bible has a commandment in it against killing people.
3. Incarceration gets the job done just as well: It takes the criminal off the streets, it makes him suffer so that the vengenace aspects of justice are served. If he was wrongfully convicted, then you can release him.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
2. Executions are uncivilized. Taking a human life is a serious thing, and all but one of the civilized countries on Earth have stopped performing them. You as a Christian should agree with this. After all, the Bible has a commandment in it against killing people. |
this is the crux that I was driving at...so I have to assume since you support abortion on demand that you don't view an unbirthed child as a human life?...
This is where I struggle with abortion...in the first 16 weeks, agree that it is not a viable human...however, by 28 weeks or so, that position becomes increasing difficult to support...
That said, do you not see 3rd trimester partial birth abortions as "murder"?
and trust me, I struggle with this...I do believe that abortion is a personal choice, and should be legal, but one that I don't agree with...
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
this is the crux that I was driving at...so I have to assume since you support abortion on demand that you don't view an unbirthed child as a human life?...
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Correct.
| Pondering wrote: |
This is where I struggle with abortion...in the first 16 weeks, agree that it is not a viable human...however, by 28 weeks or so, that position becomes increasing difficult to support...
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I don't know where you get the number 28 from. There are 'reasonable' suggestions for a cut-off time for allowing abortions. For example, the fetus being able to live on its own if it were suddenly born. Or: the fetus having a nervous system sufficiently well-developed to feel pain. Or: once labor sets in.
| Pondering wrote: |
That said, do you not see 3rd trimester partial birth abortions as "murder"? |
No, because ultimately it is still inside the mother's body, and she should have complete control over her body. It should be completely sovereign, and the government should have exactly zero say in what she does with it. As a 'sovereign territory', if she says it's not murder, then it's not murder.
Incidentally, if a pregnant woman is attacked and her fetus is killed, then she should also be allowed to say whether or not it was murder.
So I don't see a contradiction with simultaneously allowing women to have abortions right up to any time before birth, but also prosectuing someone who killed a pregnant woman for double murder.
| Pondering wrote: |
and trust me, I struggle with this...I do believe that abortion is a personal choice, and should be legal, but one that I don't agree with... |
I agree. The entire topic is extremely distasteful and charged with emotion. The only reasonable way to proceed in these cases is to turn off our emotions and proceed logically.
Incidentally, there are two more issues here:
1. Allowing abortions is good for society in at least two ways: Firstly it is extremely good for women's rights. Secondly, it reduces crime rates. Unwanted babies are much more likely to be neglected and/or raised in extreme poverty, and are at much higher risk to become criminals later on. I talked to a sociology prof. here at the university about this, and apparently the legalization of abortion had a miraculous effect on crime rates something like 15-20 years after it was passed.
2. The Bible is totally ambiguous on abortion, yet the vast majority of anti-abortion protesters in the U.S. are Christians. As for the death penalty, the Bible is very clear on that one... You're basically supposed to kill anyone for the dumbest little thing, including working on Sundays.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Abortion and the Death Penalty |
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| Pondering wrote: | Ok...this should probably be its own thread so...a Poll of sorts, though I encourage defense of positions...
do you support:
a) Abortion on demand
b) The death penalty
c) A not B
d) B not A
e) both A and B
sorry for all the edits...I was tweeking it after the first post |
You forgot one ..
Abortion is murder ..
The Death Penalty is murder ..
SO I don't support either
_________________
Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Neither are technically murder in the USA as a whole as Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Abortion and the Death Penalty |
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| doctrellor wrote: |
Abortion is murder ..
The Death Penalty is murder ..
SO I don't support either |
You're correct...I should have had one more option of "neither"....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a map of the world showing which countries allow the death penalty:
The Map
Looks the Muslim countries are rather fond of it...
Compared with a map of the world showing which countries allow abortions:
The Map
Wow, Chile is pretty extreme.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Good for Chile
At least they realize that babies are worth more than the trashcan
_________________
Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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