HOLY SPIRIT NOT GIVEN YET?

HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject:

Ok.

It seems as though I cannot get answers here to some of my questions. Confused or disgusted

And I thought the whole thing was already thought out! Rolling Eyes

How about you, Yehu? You seemed to show an interest. Very Happy

How about explaining Genesis 18 and the Luke verse?

I mean, without those two specific passages in Holy Scripture, slicing like double edged swords... what you and JB are saying (and please rebuke me if I got that wrong) would sound like it could be sound doctrine.
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The HeKkLeR

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 909

JB, I still don't understand your reasoning for why someone would need the Holy Spirit to indwell them. The prophets are called HOLY. That means they are considered "pure". How can what is pure not be saved and therefore still need an indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be saved?

Paul

HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject:

1) If God could not dwell in the Israelite prophets because they were "unclean", then what was the whole "clean-unclean" thing about that they went through? Did not God say something about "being holy" and staying "holy" and stuff?

I mean... I'm sure that somewhere in the bible... somewhere in there... God mentions something about holy people and stuff. Hey Idea

. Did not God have a small Holy place where nothing unholy could enter?

Could God make someone Holy in His eyes? Shocked

I mean... if He wanted to?
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HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject:

2) If the spirit of God did not enter into the prophets of Israel, then what was with Ezekiel Question

Ezekiel 1:28

2:1

2

the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet

3:23

24

Then the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet.

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The HeKkLeR

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

HekKler,
You and Trettep, don't really seem to be interested in other views. All you seem to be concerned about is your point of view. That has became obvious to me in another forum. Why should I, or Yehu or any one else, for that matter continue to spend time,expend energy, to teach and to share our view if all you are interested in is shooting our position down? You know what you believe and I know what I believe and Yehu definitely knows what he believes. So why is this becoming an obsession for this small group? I am not controlled by your view, but you seem to be controlled by mine. Why?

I shared several times my position and you just don't seem to catch on. That is fine with me. I have no problem with that.

Remember one thing. Pride goes before a fall.

God bless you and I will certainly pray for you that the God of peace would work greatly in your some what disturbed spirits.

Yehushuan · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:

Hi Hek,

First, I keep wondering how I became quite so enmeshed in this imbroglio. It’s not so much that I have a particular doctrine to defend, but that I really get tired of seeing bad translations used to prop up a strange doctrine – one that hadn’t been substantially supported by scripture to begin with.

Exekiel 2:2 LXX … και ηλθεν επι εμε πνευμα και ανελαβεν με…

A quick look shows there is no preposition “in” (εν) but rather the preposition used is epi (upon) – so at least from the perspective of the LXX authors, there is a difference between the indwelling of the spirit and the spirit coming upon someone. (The same text “epi” is also used in chapter 3:24)

From the perspective of the dark side, I do know that a demonic spirit can oppress someone from without but not necessarily actually possess them, and from my (albeit limited) experience with actual demon possession, I also know that they can indwell inside people.

I am also of the persuasion that the crucifixion was necessary for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for us all, save perhaps for the special dispensation in Luke 1. That’s an interesting passage, but like I said, unique to Luke.

Now I must say I’m a bit confused regarding your reference to Genesis 18. What? From trettep’s perspective God got upset at the sinners in Sodom and decided to save them and take them all to heaven. Maybe I missed something, but I’m reluctant to spend the time to review the entire thread.

What’s the next one on the list?

Yehu
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HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject:

JB,
That is pretty arrogant of you. Rolling Eyes

I am discussing the bible and what the bible says about the Holy Spirit dwelling in people before the book of Acts.

This is a discussion about the bible and that topic. If you get offended because what God's Word says, shoots your ideas down, then what does that say about you? Shocked

Humility comes before glory.
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The HeKkLeR

HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject:

Hey Yehu,

Ok. I gotcha. Very Happy

By the way, the reference to Genesis 18 is about the Lord appearing before Abraham and eating with him. Was the Spirit of God not in the one that Abraham ate with?
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The HeKkLeR

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

HeKkLer,
Are you serious about Genesis 18? It says that the Lord Appeared to Him. The Lord made Himself known to His people through out the Old Testament.

No where in that text does it say the the Lord (Jehovah) sat down and ate with him. Lets take a look at Genesis 18. It says that in the middle of the day the Lord appeared to Abraham

(Verse 1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
(Verse 2) When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw {them,} he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth
(Verse 3) and said, "My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Does this text say that one of the three men was the Lord? Maybe -Maybe not. Either way, the Lord is the Spirit and I am sure that He wasn't just a man. This gives you no support for your theology. Jesus came to the earth and He had the Spirit. God wasn't a sinner and the Lord referred to in this text wasn't a sinner.

The premise of this argument is about sinners being washed in the blood before receiving the Holy Spirit.
Did Jesus need that?
Whose idea was this one?

The Holy Spirit appeared unto men in many different ways in the Old testament. How then does this verse support your argument? It doesn't.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 628

Why did Moses see only the back of God's head instead of seeing God face to face?

Why did God say, no one can see me face to face and live?

Do we really stand in the presence of God or do we walk where He was present and are influenced by the power of where He was.

They followed God in a cloud. But yet we seem to think that God could dwell in those people at that time.

Jim, Go back and look again

Your Brother in CHrist
JB[/quote]
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

HeKkLer,

In Luke 1 there are several possibilities. 1 would go in your favor. But in light of the overwhelming support through out the Old Testament that The Holy Spirit didn't inhabit man but came upon man, I doubt that Luke 1 would be any different. Here are the possibilities.

ἔπλησαν ἐπλήσθη ἐπλήσθησαν πλήσας πλησθεὶς πλησθῆναι πλησθῇς πλησθήσεται

A prolonged form of a primary pleo (pleh'-o) (which appears only as an alternate in certain tenses and in the reduplicated form pimplemi) to "fill" (literally or figuratively (imbue, influence, supply)); specially, to fulfil (time) -- accomplish, full (...come), furnish.

ἔπλησαν (eplēsan) − 1 Occurrence

ἐπλήσθη (eplēsthē) − 5 Occurrences

ἐπλήσθησαν (eplēsthēsan) − 12 Occurrences

πλήσας (plēsas) − 1 Occurrence

πλησθεὶς (plēstheis) − 2 Occurrences

πλησθῆναι (plēsthēnai) − 1 Occurrence

πλησθῇς (plēsthēs) − 1 Occurrence

πλησθήσεται (plēsthēsetai) − 1 Occurrence

I would like for you to take notice of the possibilities of the Greek word chosen here and the chance that it might mean figurative.

Which one would you choose as you roll the dice?

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048

HeKkler,
You say that I am arrogant and you lay claim that this is a Bible Discussion. AT what point did it become a discussion? I went back through and saw very little discussion. It seems to have gone this way. what does this verse mean. and answer given and then a argument. This happened quite frequently. It was almost like the Pharisees trying to trap Jesus.

That isn't a discussion. I realize that you have your view and that is fine and I have mine. I tried my best to give clear answers as often as possible. I think that now I have covered every one including Luke. If this doesn't work for you, then I guess that there is no more to say.

I felt that my answers were all more than sufficient, you didn't. I guess we are just at an impasse.

I guess it is time for us to move on to another topic and start the process over again. By the way, I really enjoyed (past tense) this one.

Thanks and God Bless.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 628

JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 727 Location: Pa.

Luke 24:44-49
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48And ye are witnesses of these things.

49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.