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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| HeKkLeR wrote: | | Quote: | Very well put HeKkLeR. Thank you for the time and effort
you put into finding the above quote. Very similar to Yeshua's quote.
Thanks! |
Hey, thank you, Niall! 
But... the quote you left was not from me.  So, I am not sure if you meant what I actually included from the Bible, or if you meant the gracious stuff that Brother John wrote. 
If the latter, I surely cannot take any credit, but give it away. |
Sorry HeKkLeR the quote I left was in error. The gratitude was towards you alone.  I'll address Brother John's in another post.
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The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Re: ha ha ha ha ha ha..... |
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| Brother John wrote: |
I feel very close to you, because I know where you're coming from!! I can tell that you have a very REAL thirst for Christ and his instruction & wisdom... but my brother, I've got to tell you, if you're seeking REAL knowledge of God and his instruction for our lives...and you're seeking hard after him in the path's of the gnostics, then you're following the Blind out into the dessert. AND: If you're following them only in general and not even connected to their path Because: bear in mind that one of THE central and most fundamental tenets w/in ALL gnosticism is the importance of the "transmission" of this gnosis from one 'master' to their disciple in a very personal basis...and that w/out this, it cannot be 'received'...according to THEIR own traditions. It works a lot like the idea of the Apostolic Succession, that it came from the hands of Christ to Peter and the Apostles to those they baptized and discipled ...etc., and that to break the chain of this succession (according to the concept of the Apostolic Succession) is to lose all authority and power of what is supposed to be given by one and received by the other....down through the process of time and teaching.
SO: If you, as in what you've said, are simply detached from the exacting teachings and processes of the Gnostic community and the Gnostics themselves and simply trying to find your own path using their own heretical and LOST conclusions as your very starting place, then you've left the lost to become more lost than they are.
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As I've mentioned previously, I only use the term gnostic as in gnosis=knowledge and I'm of no resemblence of the gnostics that you mention. My starting place was the Bible. I discern as much what I read from other scriptures as do I from the Bible. I also find a lot of fruit in a variety of places. I also know what's reasonable and what's not reasonable. If it doesn't sound plausible, then it's probably not. My nature is to question, to solve problems. To question, to seek answers. To analyze and to try and make sense of "it" all. To accept without question is something that I cannot do. If I said I could do it, and said I was saved in the traditional Christian sense, then I would be lying. I know what guides me from inside. I seek the truth.
What's happened in the past is of no importance, although its intriguing to debate. What occurs in the future, we cannot predict. What is important is now. And that is where turning to the inner Christ becomes important. The Christ is within all of us. Some are connected better with it than others. Those that connect well are able to teach and do wonderful works.
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I do not say this out of spite or anger or hatred or to be mean spirited toward you Niall!! But because my heart and yours have wondered similar dark places!! I KNOW why you search and why you seek in the places you have, and I HOPE & PRAY that you'll eventually see, by the Grace of God alone, that you are lost. I hope that it doesn't take the brokenness that came my way that made me cry out to a God who didn't answer because I called with the wrong name and the wrong intent and from the basis of instructions that HE did NOT give.
I had to first CRUMBLE before the cracks in my Universe were BIG enough to allow GOD'S TRUE LIGHT to pour in, but once I TURNED from the back of the cave and looked toward HIM......
he showed himself to me.
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Oh, I take nothing you say as mean spirited. I respect your beliefs and appreciate your comments.
And I had to crumble before realizing that mainstream Christianity means well, but does not have the answers that I needed. Basically the true spiritual food that was delivered to me. Its one of those types that you can't describe, but you know it when you see it.
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We are NOT saved by knowledge Niall, neither you nor I nor anyone...not EVEN the "knowledge" that Christ DID teach, let alone these works that are were later ascribed to Him.......falsely.
We ARE saved by Grace (the unmerited, undeserved gift from GOD) through FAITH (Belief & Trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ and his redemption ALONE!!
Not what we 'know' and 'understand'....but through what GOD did for us.
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This is one of the fundamentals that I had a lot of problems with. Wrestled with it most of my life. And I'm not a young pup LOL. Just believe and trust unconditionally (faith)... words that can lead to alot of problems. God could clear it up very easily, just drop in and say hello from time to time. Then it wouldn't require faith. Faith is required to take a giant leap and believe in things that can't be proven. Yet supposedly there is all present,loving god that could clear it up in a heart beat. Its one of those things that doesn't make sense. I don't believe in being saved or grace. I believe in doing the best that you can and let the cards fall where they may. I do believe in works. So did Yeshua.
But where am I personally with doing the works of the word, a long long way from becoming what I know I should be. I'm still a babe in those regards.
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Sure, we need to know of it, and this knowledge is given through the preaching of God's word, HIS Gospel...and this knowledge MUST go out to ALL the world...
because it is not the Father's will that ANY should be lost!
But we aren't to worship the WISDOM or KNOWLEDGE that Christ gave us...
Knowledge is to be able to hold the map in our hands and see it.
Wisdom is to be able to look at that map and understand/interpret it rightly....
but the TRUTH that the map shows us is that GOD ALREADY MADE THE JOURNEY!! He became flesh, dwelt amongst us and gave us the chance to be free in deed, and he Accomplished this CENTURIES before you and I were ever born! But HE did it for ME...and He did it for YOU! ....and He did it for EVERYONE!
Don't worship the God given map (especially not the ones drummed up by man's lost longings for Him)
Don't praise the God given ability to READ & INTERPRET that map...
Rather Worship the One who sent the one who already traveled that path!
Jesus is LORD...
not Knowledge or Wisdom.
Not Gnosis
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Christ teaches the word, and the word is knowledge....
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sorry to ramble on so, but I hope and pray Niall that you'll see where I'm coming from.
In LOVE...
Your Brother
John[/u] |
You're not rambling. Its something you are passionate about. Nothing wrong with that!
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The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Christ teaches the word, and the word is knowledge.... |
Hey Niall,
would you have some Scripture to go with that piece of cake?
I mean... I am taught that Christ IS The Word. And that The Word is wisdom, through which understanding is granted, and knowledge is gained.
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Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| HeKkLeR wrote: | | Quote: | | Christ teaches the word, and the word is knowledge.... |
Hey Niall,
would you have some Scripture to go with that piece of cake?
I mean... I am taught that Christ IS The Word. And that The Word is wisdom, through which understanding is granted, and knowledge is gained. |
John tells us: "In the beginning was the Word".
Its just something that is evident. You understand the word, the gain in knowledge that the Christ exumes.
Galatians 2:20, where Paul says, It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.
Christ provides the word, the knowledge.
I agree 100% with your definition of the word as stated.
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The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2848
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | I only consider myself a gnostic-Christian from a very fundamental definition. |
A fundamentalist Gnostic?
Oh my. Perhaps we should converse of whether the Gospel of Judas is canon or not.
How does it help you to redefine the word Gnostic and then apply it to yourself? That’s a bit like joining the Nazis for Israel Libertarian Party. I suggest you do both yourself and your reader a disservice by adopting a moniker that misleads. This is why I avoid applying the term Christian to myself.
| Niall wrote: | | The instruction I received from the Christ provided me a path to peace within myself (internally). It gave me relief that I was following a path that made sense. |
Hopefully you don’t think yourself unique in receiving such instruction. However, under what pretext can one consider this “Christ” to be capable of being detached from the Old Testament? You call yourself a Gnostic yet in other sentences distance yourself from actual Gnostic theology? Now if you don’t know what you are, why should any of us deign to listen?
| Niall wrote: | | Then it wouldn't require faith. Faith is required to take a giant leap and believe in things that can't be proven. |
But you describe Kierkegaardian faith, Niall, something that the New Testament texts did not have in mind. Today, people use the word faith in at least five different ways. The one used by Paul is NOT that used by Kierkegaard. Paul had no faith until AFTER a direct ontic confrontation with Christ Himself.
| Niall wrote: | | I believe in doing the best that you can and let the cards fall where they may. |
The first part is pure and unadulterated medieval Catholicism. (Trust me, it is.)
| Niall wrote: | | John tells us: "In the beginning was the Word". |
Actually, he doesn’t. John wrote, “εν αρχη ην ο λογος,” which would rather read “The Pattern (Logos) was effused throughout the cosmic plasma.”
I tell you truly, it is hard for the Spirit of Christ to teach you if you rely upon bad English translations. Have you considered reading the original Greek? Or at least getting a good interlinear?
Yehu
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2848
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | | They turn inward to their own LOST guidance and to the works of other men who've done the same throughout the ages... |
This reminds me of the works of Krishnamurti.
Yehu
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I tell you truly, it is hard for the Spirit of Christ to teach you if you rely upon bad English translations. |
Since you boldly state such a thing about the Christ, please back that up with scripture.
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Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2848
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| HeKkLeR wrote: | | Quote: | | I tell you truly, it is hard for the Spirit of Christ to teach you if you rely upon bad English translations. |
Since you boldly state such a thing about the Christ, please back that up with scripture. |
Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Mar 7:13 KJV Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
And I can't think of anything more traditional than the KJV version.
Yehu
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I can't think of anything more traditional than the KJV version. |
Haha Good one!
But seriously...  ... you cannot back that up with scripture, huh?
Didn't think so... 
Ok, I'm moving along now..
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Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1048
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
Was that last post just to show us your new emoticons?
Yehu, I like reading in color.
Keep seeking the King |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | “The Pattern (Logos) was effused throughout the cosmic plasma.” |
That's interesting. By no means do I want to detract from your point that it is very helpful to study the new testament in Greek, or at least find out the precise meaning that the writer intended in his written language. I fully agree.
But I find it interesting that I do come across people who are not versed in scripture who know this. And other truths of God. And they receive these things simply because they have a heart for God.
Admittedly, this way of receiving from God might be hit & miss, and your statement that bad English translations can hinder one from receiving what the Spirit of God may want to speak to someone is right. I've known several people who I believe have heard from God's Spirit that He is a God of mercy and compassion, yet they tell me they have trouble reconciling what they read in scripture with what they know in their heart about God's nature. They only see judgement and wrath in scripture (not only because of English translations, but because of their religious upbringing, which has left them unable to see any other meaning to passages of scripture except the legalist teachings they were brought up in) but the God they know by personal relationship, and who speaks to them by His Spirit, is a God of love and compassion.
These ones were lucky. I know others who hear the Spirit of God speaking to them of HIs kindness and mercy, yet insist on believing teachings of men which they've heard, and condemn themselves and others for their human faults while God is trying to tell them He accepts them and receives them as His child.
But the scriptures did prophecy "Every man shall be taught of God", and Jesus said that the gospel was like leaven that would leaven the whole lump. We Christians hear a lot of preaching about the bad leaven, which we're warned not to allow to spoil the whole lump. But Jesus said the kingdom was like leaven too. I think like leaven, it is transforming the whole world, in each of our hearts.
Now in saying all this, I am not commenting on whether our friend Niall is hearing from Christ within or not. Based on the plan of God as revealed in scripture, I reject a gospel of salvation by good works regardless who it's revealed to. That God would create us for good works, provoke us to good works, yes. But save us by them, no. That only the Christ could do.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Starting a-new |
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Niall & everyone....
This thread has drifted from the words of a spurious gnostic text to MANY other subjects. That can be very good, but it can also distract from good points made...
So....I'm going to create a NEW thread to speak specifically on Gnosticism, ancient & modern, it's core and it's offshoots, texts, adherents...etc...
Why:
1. It's MORE prevalent than you'd think in our society!
2. It's much more prevalent in our "Christian" Churches than most anyone could imagine!
3. It's WRONG, but seductive and deceptive.
I hope everyone who is interested will check it out and add your own thoughts, ideas and gnosis. (as in Actual "knowledge") I hope to make it a thread that will lay out plain and clear information, an open and honest dialog about the subject from different vantage points. But most of all, I'm hoping that it will remain cordial, polite and thoughtful.....yet blunt and striving for the Truth that God offers freely to all of us.
I look forward to ALL of your contributions!
Your Brother
John |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | [
A fundamentalist Gnostic?
Oh my. Perhaps we should converse of whether the Gospel of Judas is canon or not. |
Fundamental to word gnosis. While the literal translation for this word is "knowledge", it's meaning is closer to "insight" or, to use a more modern concept, "enlightenment". Rather than purely an intellectual understanding then, it is a "knowledge of the heart" (which is not meant to imply mere emotionalism) or wisdom.
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How does it help you to redefine the word Gnostic and then apply it to yourself? That’s a bit like joining the Nazis for Israel Libertarian Party. I suggest you do both yourself and your reader a disservice by adopting a moniker that misleads. This is why I avoid applying the term Christian to myself.
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I apply the term Christian as my belief what the Christ is. As far as labels, I never really bought into that much. But I would prefer to try and air it out, versus implying what I'm not.
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Hopefully you don’t think yourself unique in receiving such instruction. However, under what pretext can one consider this “Christ” to be capable of being detached from the Old Testament? You call yourself a Gnostic yet in other sentences distance yourself from actual Gnostic theology? Now if you don’t know what you are, why should any of us deign to listen?
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I know what am, but what are you LOL. What I received was just words, nothing unique about them. But its something I cherish and value much. One day maybe I'll discuss the words. I won't devalue them by just repeating what happened and my experiences with it. I would have to provide background of issues and experiences that I've lived through and with for it to possibly have any meaning to anyone. I certainly don't that kind of time presently.
I do distance myself from traditional gnostics as I do from traditional Christians. Its up to you whether you listen or not. Many of us are here for entertainment value, including yourself,myself etc . When the day is said and done, and all discourse has followed its course here, has your beliefs changed any?
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But you describe Kierkegaardian faith, Niall, something that the New Testament texts did not have in mind. Today, people use the word faith in at least five different ways. The one used by Paul is NOT that used by Kierkegaard. Paul had no faith until AFTER a direct ontic confrontation with Christ Himself.
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I know what faith is. I don't buy into unconditional faith. I do believe in probability faith of something occuring based on experience. But I have nothing more to explain about my position on that.
| Niall wrote: | | I believe in doing the best that you can and let the cards fall where they may. |
| Quote: | | The first part is pure and unadulterated medieval Catholicism. (Trust me, it is.) |
It really doesn't matter what its considered. So you don't believe in doing the best you can? That's all you can do. After that its no longer in your control. I believe in giving everything my best shot. I've found with experience, you have better success with better performance.
| Niall wrote: | | John tells us: "In the beginning was the Word". |
| Quote: | | Actually, he doesn’t. John wrote, “εν αρχη ην ο λογος,” which would rather read “The Pattern (Logos) was effused throughout the cosmic plasma.” |
Actually it does in some translated versions. Logos was also the greek symbol for Christ or the word.
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I tell you truly, it is hard for the Spirit of Christ to teach you if you rely upon bad English translations. Have you considered reading the original Greek? Or at least getting a good interlinear?
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I look inward for the Christ. It is in all of us. Reading is not always the answer. Self reflection, understanding how you think about yourself inside, and how you represent yourself in the environment is also essential. You know giving a fish versus fishing...
I never took greek but would appreciate you pointing me to a decent translation as well as a good Hebrew translation of the OT.
You're an interesting fellow Yehu. Enjoy your conversations.
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The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2848
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | They only see judgement and wrath in scripture (not only because of English translations, but because of their religious upbringing, which has left them unable to see any other meaning to passages of scripture except the legalist teachings they were brought up in) |
Which is why Jesus Himself never commissioned any writings to comprise Holy Writ for His disciples. And is also why the apostles never overtly sat down to write SCRIPTURE, until their own concerns about their death (and the misrepresentation of others) led them to do so. Not even Paul took the time to write a Catechism or Confessional, whereby doctrine and teachings would be presented as in a generic educational format, but merely wrote to address specific questions and specific concerns of specific people within specific churches.
As I’ve said before, I think it rather insane to follow a religious leader to whom God does not speak directly by voice. Just as it is insane to follow a religious leader (or church) who claims that he is the only one through whom God speaks.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Now in saying all this, I am not commenting on whether our friend Niall is hearing from Christ within or not. |
Nor should any of my posts be so construed. There just is not enough information provided by which to make such a determination.
Yehu
(I thoroughly enjoyed your post.)
PS: I guess I should qualify that by “cosmic plasma,” αρχη was seen to be the initial “stuff” of the universe before it began, as in “was hurled through the skies into stars”. (Cf. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.)
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2848
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | Yehu, I like reading in color. |
And apparently HeKKler likes writing in colorful cartoons.
Yehu
(Alas I have no Rosetta Stone for the Animaniacs.)
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