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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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 Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | | TBax, you use the right scriptures, but apply them to the wrong age. The ONLY ones who are judged for life NOW are those of the Little Flock. |
If your belief is true then how do you explain:
Matt 23:33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na?
Matt 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na.
God can destroy both the body and any hope of a resurrection in Gehenna, the lake of fire.
How do you explain:
Matt 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
Such things were written as a warning for us. The preaching work benefits both the little flock and the Great crowd that lives through the Great tribulation.
John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this foldlittle flock; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
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| RR wrote: | | Romans 3:10 just as it is written: "There is not a righteous [man], not even one. |
That is why Life is a gift, not a right. No one can earn it.
| RR wrote: | If Adam had not sinned, no ransom would be needed. The ransom (corresponding price) consisted of the sacrifice of the perfect man Jesus to redeem the perfect man Adam who had sinned. Incidentally Adam's offspring were condemned and incidentally they are redeemed.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. |
Indeed. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | If your belief is true then how do you explain:
Matt 23:33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Gehenna? |
Jesus’ words here were not addressed to the heathen who had no knowledge of the truth, nor the ignorant,he was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees, outwardly the most religious, and the leaders and teachers of the people. To these our Lord said, “How can you escape the judgment of gehenna?”
These men were hypocritics. Abundant testimony of the truth had been shared with them, but they refused to accept it, and then endeavored to counteract its influence and discourage the people from accepting it. In resisting the Holy Spirit, they hardened their hearts against the very agency which God designed for their blessing. In essence they were wickedly resisting his grace, and such a course, if pursued, must eventually end in condemnation to the Second Death, gehenna.
I think you’ll agree that every step in the direction of willful blindness and opposition to the truth makes its return that more difficult, and makes the wrongdoer more and more of the character which God abhors, and which the second death is intended to utterly destroy. The Scribes and Pharisees were progressing rapidly in that direction: thus the Lord’s warning, “How can ye escape?” The sense is this: Although you boast of your piety, you will surely be destroyed in gehenna unless you change your course. There is no indication that gehenna [second death] is reserved for anyone NOW, but the Church, the Little Flock. Gehenna is reserved for those who AFTER being enlightened during the reign of righteous, who during the little season of Satan’s short reign, follow him.
| TBax wrote: | | Matt 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge•hen′na. |
Who was Jesus speaking to? His disciples, not the unbelieving people of the world. The Church are on trial now for life, the world will be on trial later.
| TBax wrote: | | God can destroy both the body and any hope of a resurrection in Gehenna, the lake of fire. |
On this we can agree. Where we disagree is WHO go there and WHEN.
| TBax wrote: | | How do you explain: Matt 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. |
Look at these verses very carefully. What is being said here? Is Jesus speaking about destruction? Another flood? No, he is speaking about the conditions when he returns.
| TBax wrote: | Such things were written as a warning for us. The preaching work benefits both the little flock and the Great crowd that lives through the Great tribulation.
John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold [little flock]; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. |
Hmmm. There are two views on this verse. The first is that the “other sheep” are the gentiles, since the Lord first came to the Nation of Israel “to Israel first” as the Scriptures tell us.
Another view and one that I am privy to is that the “other sheep” are the world of mankind, who are called during the reign of righteousness to walk up the highway of holiness. They will hear His voice to “come”. They will join the Little Flock and be one with them spirit.
| TBax wrote: | | RR wrote: | If Adam had not sinned, no ransom would be needed. The ransom (corresponding price) consisted of the sacrifice of the perfect man Jesus to redeem the perfect man Adam who had sinned. Incidentally Adam's offspring were condemned and incidentally they are redeemed.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. |
Indeed. |
Ah, so you believe Adam will be resurrected? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | | Jesus’ words here were not addressed to the heathen who had no knowledge of the truth, nor the ignorant,he was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees, outwardly the most religious, and the leaders and teachers of the people. To these our Lord said, “How can you escape the judgment of gehenna?” |
So if the Pharisees didn't become part of the little flock they were destroyed forever.
| RR wrote: | | These men were hypocritics. Abundant testimony of the truth had been shared with them, but they refused to accept it, and then endeavored to counteract its influence and discourage the people from accepting it. |
And Jesus showed that those who listened to the Pharisees were subject to Gehenna as well.
| RR wrote: | | There is no indication that gehenna [second death] is reserved for anyone NOW, but the Church, the Little Flock. |
There is no indication that people were only consigned to Gehenna during the selection of the little flock and not now during the gathering of the Great crowd. The Pharisees weren't Christians and weren't part of the church.
| RR wrote: | | Look at these verses very carefully. What is being said here? Is Jesus speaking about destruction? Another flood? No, he is speaking about the conditions when he returns. |
Yes. Armageddon is going to happen during that presence. Just like there was a world wide destruction during Noah's day. People take no note in Noah's day. Why is that significant for us? Because there is another destruction in our direct future.  Such things were written as a warning for us. 
Regarding the little flock and the other sheep, Rev shows the other sheep are a great crowd that no man was able to number that live through the great tribulation. The little flock is a limited number, 144,000, that rule with Christ in heaven.
| RR wrote: | | Ah, so you believe Adam will be resurrected? |
No! No more then Satan will be resurrected. Adam was created sinnless. He wasn't sold into that condition like we were but choose to disobey God like Satan did.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | So if the Pharisees didn't become part of the little flock they were destroyed forever. |
NO, those who lived in Jesus day who rejected him did not die forever, why should the pharisees? No, Jesus was looking at the big picture. During the reign of righteousness (1,000 year reign) were they to continue to harden their hearts, they were to be destroyed forever. The Scriptures are clear that many will fall away after tasting of the goodness if the Jehovah after the 1,000 year reign.
| TBax wrote: | | And Jesus showed that those who listened to the Pharisees were subject to Gehenna as well. |
Well, with that type of reasoning, then anyone who follows their religious leaders will go to second death.
| TBax wrote: | | There is no indication that people were only consigned to Gehenna during the selection of the little flock and not now during the gathering of the Great crowd. The Pharisees weren't Christians and weren't part of the church. |
When the Lord came to earth, he came for one purpose and one purpose only, to gather the little flock, nothing else mattered.
| TBax wrote: | | Yes. Armageddon is going to happen during that presence. Just like there was a world wide destruction during Noah's day. People take no note in Noah's day. Why is that significant for us? Because there is another destruction in our direct future. Such things were written as a warning for us. |
Okay, so here we are, according to Watchtower calculation almost 100 years into Christ's presence, where is armageddon? If WHEN the Son of man returns it happens, not DURING. Truth is armageddon is a destruction of the institutions, not individuals. That doesn't mean people will not die, just that they will not stay dead, until given the chance to know Jehovah and Jesus.
| TBax wrote: | | Regarding the little flock and the other sheep, Rev shows the other sheep are a great crowd that no man was able to number that live through the great tribulation. The little flock is a limited number, 144,000, that rule with Christ in heaven. |
There is nothing in those verses that state the Great Crowd LIVE THROUGH the great tribulation, simply that they GO THROUGH the great tribulation. BTW I believe the Great Crowd is heavenly, but that's a subject for another time.
| TBax wrote: | | No! No more then Satan will be resurrected. Adam was created sinnless. He wasn't sold into that condition like we were but choose to disobey God like Satan did. |
I agree there is no forgiveness for Satan, I disagree with Adam, I believe a proper understanding of the ransom will reveal that Adam MUST be covered by the ransom.
That too is a subject for another day.
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for a specific reason. It was a burning garbage dump where criminals who weren't worthy of rememberence were thrown. The Jews would have understood what that symbolized.
| RR wrote: | | Well, with that type of reasoning, then anyone who follows their religious leaders will go to second death. |
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
| RR wrote: | | Okay, so here we are, according to Watchtower calculation almost 100 years into Christ's presence, where is armageddon? If WHEN the Son of man returns it happens, not DURING. . |
What is your point regarding how long we are into Jesus presence?
| RR wrote: | | Truth is armageddon is a destruction of the institutions, not individuals |
Rev 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
Jer 25:33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’
| RR wrote: | | There is nothing in those verses that state the Great Crowd LIVE THROUGH the great tribulation |
Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
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14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
| RR wrote: | | I agree there is no forgiveness for Satan, I disagree with Adam, |
Was Adam created sinfull? Was it unavoidable for him to sin, like it is for us?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1192
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | TBax Quote:
The Bible is clear that:
Alone, God is Jehovah. |
| Quote: | Ragman said:
They deny the Trinity |
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That's only because the Trinity is not supported by the bible.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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TB, I’m well aware of how the Lord used the term gehenna.
| TBax wrote: | | Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. |
Who is the “her”? The Pope, the individual Catholics? The various Protestants ? Or is the “her” the actual institutions that deceive these individuals? I believe the latter!
| TBax wrote: | | What is your point regarding how long we are into Jesus presence? |
Well, you quoted our Lord’s words in Matthew regarding the days of Noah, as proof that Armageddon begins when the Lord returns. You believe the Lord returned in 1914, if that is the case, where is Armageddon?
Rev. 11:18 is symbolic, the “dead” mentioned here are the human race. Remember in God’s eye, the whole human race is dead in their sins, which is why Jesus stated “Let the dead bury the dead.” Matt 8:22
As to Jer. 25:33? Don’t tell me you are apply Jeremiah to the endtimes? Read the context!
Does Rev 7:9, 14 tell us that the Great Crowd is on earth? If so where?
As to Adam? I started a new thread.
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | | TB, I’m well aware of how the Lord used the term gehenna. |
Do you know why? It means something. It symbolizes not being worthy to be remembered, resurrected.
| RR wrote: | | Who is the “her”? |
The mother of the harlots, which symbolizes all and any false religion.
| RR wrote: | | Rev. 11:18 is symbolic, the “dead” mentioned here are the human race. |
Then is the reward to the faithful symbolic as well?
| RR wrote: | | Rev. 11:18 is symbolic, the “dead” mentioned here are the human race. |
Already posted the answer to this on another post you made. I didn't read your responce yet. But in short, the tent of God is with mankind, including these Great Crowd members.
| RR wrote: | | As to Jer. 25:33? Don’t tell me you are apply Jeremiah to the endtimes? Read the context! |
Many prophesies have duel fulfillments. Like the sign of the last days applied to the end of the Jewish system of things, but to a greater degree to us today, as we face Armageddon.
| RR wrote: | | You believe the Lord returned in 1914, if that is the case, where is Armageddon? |
Do you deny we are in the last days, and Jesus is present? The Bible shows that DAY would appear to delay.
Hab 2:3 For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.
Plus Jesus' illustration of the 10 virgins show the bridegroom would appear to delay.
Also:
Matt 24:48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards,
Where is Armageddon? It is coming exactly when Jehovah sees fit. We do know the season, and we are in it.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | RR,
| RR wrote: | | TB, I’m well aware of how the Lord used the term gehenna. |
Do you know why? It means something. It symbolizes not being worthy to be remembered, resurrected. |
Agreed. But when? is the question. I believe it is after the "millennial reign" right after the "little season". Rev 20:3
| TBax wrote: | | RR wrote: | | Who is the “her”? |
The mother of the harlots, which symbolizes all and any false religion. |
Exactly, false religion, the INSTITUTIONS themselves, not the ones mislead by them.
| TBax wrote: | | RR wrote: | | Rev. 11:18 is symbolic, the “dead” mentioned here are the human race. |
Then is the reward to the faithful symbolic as well? |
No, we're discussing the "parties", "The dead" (world of mankind dead in their sins) will be judged accordingly. The "Prophets" and "saints" will be rewarded. There is no contradiction in my statement.
| TBax wrote: | | Many prophesies have duel fulfillments. Like the sign of the last days applied to the end of the Jewish system of things, but to a greater degree to us today, as we face Armageddon. |
Really? Care to show me thwe dual fullfillments of this chapter?
| TBax wrote: | | Do you deny we are in the last days, and Jesus is present? The Bible shows that DAY would appear to delay. |
Of course I believe in the parousia and that we are living in the Last days. What, did you think you were the only ones who believed this? Who do you think you got this interpretation from?
| TBax wrote: | | Plus Jesus' illustration of the 10 virgins show the bridegroom would appear to delay. |
I never said it was.
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Do you know why? It means something. It symbolizes not being worthy to be remembered, resurrected. |
Agreed. But when? is the question. I believe it is after the "millennial reign" right after the "little season". Rev 20:3 |
So Jesus was talking about these ones going to gehenna after they are resurrected?  Sorry, I don't buy it. These ones sinned against the holy spirit, attributing the wonderful things Jesus did by means of that spirit to the power of Satan.
Matt 12:32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
| RR wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | The mother of the harlots, which symbolizes all and any false religion. |
Exactly, false religion, the INSTITUTIONS themselves, not the ones mislead by them. |
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
| RR wrote: | No, we're discussing the "parties", "The dead" (world of mankind dead in their sins) will be judged accordingly. The "Prophets" and "saints" will be rewarded. There is no contradiction in my statement.
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Be consistant. If God bringing to ruin those ruining the earth is symbolic then the reward must also be symbolic. 
That scripture doesn't contrast the faithful with "the dead". It contrasts the reward of the faithful with the punishment of the wicked. How does your Bible read? Is it very different?
Rev 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
The nations becoming wrathful corresponds with:
Rev 16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
| RR wrote: | | Really? Care to show me thwe dual fullfillments of this chapter? |
Which one? Jeremiah or the sign of the last days.
| RR wrote: | | Of course I believe in the parousia and that we are living in the Last days. What, did you think you were the only ones who believed this? Who do you think you got this interpretation from? |
Then why are you questioning "Where is armageddon"? If you believe we are in the last days you must know it is coming.
| RR wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Plus Jesus' illustration of the 10 virgins show the bridegroom would appear to delay. |
I never said it was. |
Why did you ask:
| RR wrote: | | You believe the Lord returned in 1914, if that is the case, where is Armageddon? |
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | RR, So Jesus was talking about these ones going to gehenna after they are resurrected? Sorry, I don't buy it. |
Just because you “don’t buy it” doesn’t mean it’s not true. Let me ask. Isn’t there going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous? According to John 5:29 “those who “have done good, get a resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, a resurrection of judgment. The KJV renders it damnation, but they haven’t been damned yet, if they were, as you asked, why resurrect them only to *Holy Censor, Batman* them? That must mean there is a judgment period for these individuals. I believe this is what the 1,000 year reign is for. This is the judgment period where mankind is judged accordingly. We all die because of sin that we inherit from Adam (1 Cor. 15:22). The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 tells us, so when we die, we have paid the price. On the “last day” that Martha alluded too, (John 11:24) all will be resurrected (all are made alive in Christ). No more will men die the Adamic death, for that is the death mentioned in Rev 20:14, that will be thrown into the lake of fire. From henforth, those who die will die for their own sins, you’ll notice second death is not tossed in with the rest.
We are told that in the Kingdom “all will be taught of Jehovah”, because the 1,000 year reign will be a time of learning, Satan and his minions will be out of commission, the world will be free of their influence, giving way for human hearts to be receptive to God’s provision. During the reign of The Christ, mankind will have the opportunity to walk up the highway of holiness (Isa 35:8) those who do not progress will be destroyed, I believe this is what Isaiah 65:20 alludes to when it mentions a child of 100 shall die. The Lord will give humans 100 years to progress. Of course mankinds true test for those who progress to the end will be determine during the “little season” when Satan is let loose to deceive the nations(Rev. 20:3). Those of course who follow AFTER being FULLY enlightened to the Truth will suffer the second death (Lake of fire, Gehenna) where is there NO resurrection.
| TBax wrote: | | These ones sinned against the holy spirit, attributing the wonderful things Jesus did by means of that spirit to the power of Satan. |
Didn't the holy Spirit come down on Pentecost? How could these have sinned against something they never received?
| TBax wrote: | | Matt 12:32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come. |
Again, I ask, what proof do we have that these individuals possessed the holy Spirit, since it did not come down till Pentecost upon the 70?
| TBax wrote: | Be consistant. If God bringing to ruin those ruining the earth is symbolic then the reward must also be symbolic.
That scripture doesn't contrast the faithful with "the dead". It contrasts the reward of the faithful with the punishment of the wicked. How does your Bible read? Is it very different?
Rev 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” |
Your problem TB is that you believe that ALL of God’s judgments are final, and that simply is not the case. You believe Adam is forever dead, that all those who died by the hand of God are all dead, be they killed at his direction or whether they died in the flood, or destroyed by fire as in Sodom, or at Armageddon. The RANSOM, covers EVERYONE, “as in Adam ALL DIE, so in Jesus shall ALL be made ALIVE.” 1 Cor. 15:22. Paul Tells Timothy that Jesus “died a Ransom for all.” (1 Ti 2:6) What part of ALL don’t you understand?
The way your theology works, anyone destroyed by God (directly or indirectly) is forever dead. That leaves the masses of mankind with no hope. Armageddon will destroy billions, with no hope of a resurrection. Faithful JW’s will be ushered into the Kingdom reign, with a resurrection later. Then after the 1,000 years, the masses will be destroyed “like the sands of the seas” (Rev 20:8). Seems like Satan won.
| TBax wrote: | | RR wrote: | | Really? Care to show me the dual fulfillments of this chapter? |
Which one? Jeremiah or the sign of the last days. |
I know we are in the last days, I was referring to Jeremiah.
| TBax wrote: | | … why are you questioning "Where is armageddon"? If you believe we are in the last days you must know it is coming. |
I’m trying to understand your reasoning. Are there two comings? The Scriptures are clear when he returns Armageddon begins. You say he returned in 1914, where is Armageddon? Has it started or is it yet future? If it’s future then the Lord has not returned.
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | | Just because you “don’t buy it” doesn’t mean it’s not true. |
I agree. That is why I explained why. Do you believe the Pharisees sinned against the holy spirit by rejecting this proof that Jesus had God's backing? They even went are far as to say these miracles the holy spirit enabled Jesus to do was because of the operation of Satan.
Please answer.
Do you believe the Pharisees sinned against the holy spirit by rejecting this proof that Jesus had God's backing?
| RR wrote: | | Let me ask. Isn’t there going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous? |
Indeed. But not the righteous and the wicked. Some "unrighteous" people didn't have an opportunity to learn of Jesus. They will have their chance then. But as for those who sinned against the holy spirit in Jesus day, 
RR, for the most part I can agree with what you are saying except for the fact that certain ones will not be resurrected, and that armageddon will mean destruction of people as well as organizations..
| RR wrote: | | The Lord will give humans 100 years to progress. |
???
| RR wrote: | | Didn't the holy Spirit come down on Pentecost? How could these have sinned against something they never received? |
What enabled Jesus to preform miracles? What inspired Bible writters? What you are talking about is the annointing the holy spirit did.
| RR wrote: | | Again, I ask, what proof do we have that these individuals possessed the holy Spirit, since it did not come down till Pentecost upon the 70? |
They saw it's operation and rejected it with Jesus. I did explain this:
| TBax wrote: | | These ones sinned against the holy spirit, attributing the wonderful things Jesus did by means of that spirit to the power of Satan. |
| RR wrote: | | Your problem TB is that you believe that ALL of God’s judgments are final |
I do believe his judgements are final. God is not a man that he should make mistakes. What God says is truth. What God does is accurate and flawless.
| RR wrote: | | Seems like Satan won. |
???
Because people have free will and can make their own choices it seems like Satan won? Satan challenged Jehovah's soverignty saying the creation could rule itself sucessfully apart from God. That has been proven false. Satan is a liar.
Could you be clearer as to how your understanding of my theology indicates Satan won. 
"RR
| RR wrote: | | I’m trying to understand your reasoning. Are there two comings? The Scriptures are clear when he returns Armageddon begins. You say he returned in 1914, where is Armageddon? Has it started or is it yet future? If it’s future then the Lord has not returned. |
There is Jesus presence, which we are in now, and Jesus coming to exacute judgement at Armageddon.
| RR wrote: | | I know we are in the last days, I was referring to Jeremiah. |
You indicated you knew what the original fulfillment was and I already mentioned the major fulfillment. The original fulfillment is against those nations mentioned there in CH 25. The major fulfillment is as follows:
Jer 25:32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’
Rev 16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
When the nation war against Jehovah how will they fare?
Rev 19:17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”
19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth. And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them.
The wicked people aren't buried, but become bird food or rot as manure.
Rev 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
Rev 13:8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.
Those that worship the human political system are not written in the scroll of life. Those who are spiritually warped are ruining the earth in God's view. He isn't going to allow that to continue.
How extensive will this be?
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath,
...
19 And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and he hurled it into the great winepress of the anger of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress as high up as the bridles of the horses, for a distance of a thousand six hundred furlongs.
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Agape,
TBax |
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