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144,000 Virgin Males? ... (Revived and Revisited)
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| Are the annointed 144,000 all male virgins? |
| YES! Only Male Virgins will be allowed in to heaven! |
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| NO! It's not a literal bunch of males & not literal virgins! |
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| I don't know. |
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PrysdieHeer!
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 409
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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 Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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TBax, I don`t think I`m sure what you believe about 144000, can you make it more clear, please?
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Prys die Heer!
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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PrysdieHeer!
Hi, 
The 144,000 are also called by Jesus the "little flock". These are the firstfruits of the Christian congregation who Jesus made a covenant with for a kingdom. These will rule with Christ in that kingdom for the benefit of mankind. This opportunity was originally extended to the original jews, yet because of the disobedience of the majority the opportunity was extended to the gentiles as well to become part of this "Israel of God".
Do you need more? Perhaps scripture to back this up?
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Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
Hi,
| luvnlife wrote: | | 1 religion, many different branches (churches, sects) of that religion. |
Titus 3:10 As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11 knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.
There is one truth.  These different "churches, sects" teach different things, and are not part of the body of the Christian congregation, but a deviation from it. For instance, either God is a trinity or he isn't. It cannot be both ways. Either there is an immortal soul or there isn't. It cannot be both ways. Those religions (churches , sects) that incorperate false babylonish teachings into their doctrine are not true Christians. 
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Regarding the rest of your post, I can understand you wondering about such things.  However it is obvious that these words are symbolic, especially in line with the "virgin" comment. Organizations are refered to as women in Rev, and other parts of the Bible. The heavenly organization made up of all faithful spirit creatures is refered to as Jerusalem above, "and she is our mother".
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
The collective group of the 144,000 are called the bride of Christ.
Also false religion are refered to as harlots who commit spiritual fornication. If you have another idea as to who these "women" are I would like to hear it. However, as your poll indicates, as well as your original post, such words are not speaking of literal women or virgins.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | There is one truth. These different "churches, sects" teach different things, and are not part of the body of the Christian congregation, but a deviation from it. For instance, either God is a trinity or he isn't. It cannot be both ways. Either there is an immortal soul or there isn't. It cannot be both ways. Those religions (churches , sects) that incorperate false babylonish teachings into their doctrine are not true Christians. |
I'm just a passive observer in this conversation, but if you would be so kind, TBax, could you clarify something please? Should we understand from your quote above that the "body of the Christian congregation" which you refer to above would be the Witnesses only, and all other "churches, sects" which are a deviation from that Christian congregation are all other religious organizations calling themselves Christian churches?
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
You know exactly what I believe regarding your question.
I wouldn't be a Witness of Jehovah if I didn't believe it was the truth. The scriptures are clear there aren't multiple truths.
Eph 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
To believe there are multiple "sects" that God aproves of is unscriptural, as already shown.
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PrysdieHeer!
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 409
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | PrysdieHeer!
Hi,
The 144,000 are also called by Jesus the "little flock". These are the firstfruits of the Christian congregation who Jesus made a covenant with for a kingdom. These will rule with Christ in that kingdom for the benefit of mankind. This opportunity was originally extended to the original jews, yet because of the disobedience of the majority the opportunity was extended to the gentiles as well to become part of this "Israel of God".
Do you need more? Perhaps scripture to back this up? |
So you do not believe there is only 144000 places in heaven? Good
I think I can agree with the Little flock thing, but it will help if you give scripture
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Now let me see where I stand!
I agree The bible is the Word of God!
I agree 144 000 Will be special in some way.
I agree we should go from door to door and make sure our neighbour is christian, but not all of us Eph4:11
I believe God = 3, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 1Joh5:8
Can`t think of more I disagree on, think of something later though!
BTW: does JW`s Believe in Evolution?
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Prys die Heer!
_________________
Love is never a problem, it is always the solution!
If God did not exist, you would not Exist.
Im a YEC. Find out more on www.yecheadquarters.org |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
You know exactly what I believe regarding your question.
I wouldn't be a Witness of Jehovah if I didn't believe it was the truth. The scriptures are clear there aren't multiple truths.
Eph 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
To believe there are multiple "sects" that God aproves of is unscriptural, as already shown. |
Yes, Zathrus knows what you believe as do I. JW's are not the only religion to 'single' themselves out as the chosen ones. That's pretty judgmental if you ask me.
Read Jesus' words in John 10:
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Seems pretty clear by Jesus' own words that there is not one group of people that are part of the flock.
Each will be judged according to his or her works. Not by the church they attend.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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PrysdieHeer!,
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | So you do not believe there is only 144000 places in heaven? Good
I think I can agree with the Little flock thing, but it will help if you give scripture |
There is only one reason to go to heaven. To rule in that kingdom. So only 144,000 humans are resurrected to heavenly life.
Rev 14:3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.
Notice the 144,000 are "bought" from the earth. These ones who are bought from the earth serve a certain purpose.
These are spiritual Israelites as they come from all nations. The purpose these ones bought from the earth serve is brought out here.
Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
They rule as kings over the earth and serve as priests. If that is the case they need subjects, don't they?
Humans were made to live on the earth, and that kingdom will bring the blessings of Jesus sacrifice to mankind, bringing an end to suffering and pain and death. That is the future for most of faithful mankind.
Regarding Eph 4:11: If you do not believe Jesus commision he gave his disciple to make disciples applies to you that is your call.
Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
Jesus told others about the good news of God's kingdom. You don't feel the need to follow him in this? Christians are suppose to be footstep followers of Jesus, aren't they?
| PrydiesHeer! wrote: | | I believe God = 3, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 1Joh5:8 |
(1 John 5:8) the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.
I believe God = 1
Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Did the apostles believe this changed when Jesus came?
(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Hmm. No trinity here.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
Eph 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
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One body... of one accord...one spirit...One Lord...One faith (not one religion but one faith, one singular heart-felt belief in God and Jesus).
The flock of Jesus Christ is made up of many different people and religions who are gathered together by Jesus to form one flock.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
If you want to believe that the conflicting doctrine in different organizations or "sects" is the work of Jesus, that is your call. Jehovah is not a God of disorder like that.
Eph 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
| luvnlife wrote: | | That's pretty judgmental if you ask me. |
All people have the opportunity to become true Christians. How is that judgemental?
If you want ot believe different sects are acceptable to God, that is your call. As for me I shall accept the Bible's words.
Titus 3:10 As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11 knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.
There is one truth. These different "churches, sects" teach different things, and are not part of the body of the Christian congregation, but a deviation from it. For instance, either God is a trinity or he isn't. It cannot be both ways. Either there is an immortal soul or there isn't. It cannot be both ways. Those religions (churches , sects) that incorperate false babylonish teachings into their doctrine are not true Christians.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Seems pretty clear by Jesus' own words that there is not one group of people that are part of the flock. |
The little flock(144,000) and the other sheep (the Great Crowd) are the two folds that become the one flock. They are all people that believe the same things, of the same religion. Not different sects!
| luvnlife wrote: | | Each will be judged according to his or her works. Not by the church they attend. |
Sorry, but that is directly wrong.  Although we are judged by our work it involves obedience to the direction to leave false religion.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | luvnlife,
If you want to believe that the conflicting doctrine in different organizations or "sects" is the work of Jesus, that is your call. Jehovah is not a God of disorder like that.
Eph 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
| luvnlife wrote: | | That's pretty judgmental if you ask me. |
All people have the opportunity to become true Christians. How is that judgemental?
If you want ot believe different sects are acceptable to God, that is your call. As for me I shall accept the Bible's words.
Titus 3:10 As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11 knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.
There is one truth. These different "churches, sects" teach different things, and are not part of the body of the Christian congregation, but a deviation from it. For instance, either God is a trinity or he isn't. It cannot be both ways. Either there is an immortal soul or there isn't. It cannot be both ways. Those religions (churches , sects) that incorperate false babylonish teachings into their doctrine are not true Christians.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Seems pretty clear by Jesus' own words that there is not one group of people that are part of the flock. |
The little flock(144,000) and the other sheep (the Great Crowd) are the two folds that become the one flock. They are all people that believe the same things, of the same religion. Not different sects!
| luvnlife wrote: | | Each will be judged according to his or her works. Not by the church they attend. |
Sorry, but that is directly wrong. Although we are judged by our work it involves obedience to the direction to leave false religion.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
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Well, if TBax believes it, and TBax says it's right, then it must be right......RIGHT?
So no matter how much we love and worship God, no matter how we strive to follow Christ, no matter how we apply Gods principles to our lives, if we are not JW's, we are going straight to Hades, right?
I wonder what God means when he tells us not to judge...
If any religion believes that they are the one true, the only religion, that's kind of judgmental, isn't it?
How can Christians help anyone if they are looking down their noses at them? Is that charitable? Is it in keeping with what God really taught us? Is that REALLY how JW's choose to view the rest of the world?
You may want to take your rose-colored glasses off for awhile, TBax while you consider what the bible really says.
Paul presided over several churches. They were all Christian churches. Though the churches believed similar things, their beliefs were not identical. The way they did things within the churches and within their communities were not identical.
The churches mentioned in Revelations (Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, Smyrna, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodiceans) were Christian churches, not of different faiths (if you consider the belief in God and Jesus to be one faith). They practiced their faith differently and held beliefs that were not necessarily the same from church to church. Several churches were rebuked because of Gods love for them. They were warned to repent. God's heart was open to them and He was hopeful that they would heed the warnings. God did not 'rule out' any congregation because they were not JW"s, for example. In fact, God even made provisions for individuals who were faithful and true though many of their Christian brethren were not walking in righteousness.
One true FAITH, Yes.
One true CHURCH? No.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
How do you believe it should be. If luvnlife say it is RIGHT it must be RIGHT even if it opposes scripture.
The Bible says sects and those who promote them are to be rejected. luvnlife says "no, Jesus accepts all sects".
You can believe what you choose to. As for me, I will believe what the Bible says.
| luvnlife wrote: | | If any religion believes that they are the one true, the only religion, that's kind of judgmental, isn't it? |
What do you think of the Muslims, the Buddists, and the thousands of other non-Christian religions? If you think these are wrong are you being judgemental? Where do you draw the line? Judging people's motives is one thing. Judging if a religion is true or not is quite another.
If someone is commiting fornication and we recognize that, that doesn't mean we are judging them. That is for God. But it is obvious they are going against scripture. If we warn them that doesn't mean we are judging them!!!
The truth is the truth! Your claim of being judgemental doesn't fit. Again, all have the opportuinity to accept the truth. How is that being judgemental on our part. If the truth wasn't vital we wouldn't care, like the rest do not care. Perhaps we would even kill our brothers in war like most of your Churches do. But the truth is vital and changes lives to be in harmony with God's will.
Jesus even showed that some would claim to be his followers yet he wouldn't recognize them. Yes, people who claim to be Christian but are not. Imagine that!
| luvnlife wrote: | | Paul presided over several churches. They were all Christian churches. |
All those congregation were all the same religion. We have many places of worship as well, as well as traveling overseers like Paul was. In this case these different congregations didn't teach different things, and if they did they were corrected. This does not compare with the different religions and sects that teach pagan doctrine.
Your point is way askew. Is a Catholic priest welcome to teach in a Baptist congregation?
| luvnlife wrote: | One true FAITH, Yes.
One true CHURCH? No.
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Are both Catholics and Baptists part of this "one true faith"?
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | JW's are not the only religion to 'single' themselves out as the chosen ones. |
TRue. There are little religious organizations all over the world convinced they are the only ones saved.
This is the inevitable result of determining the status of one's salvation by belief in a set of doctrines or allegiance to a religious organization, and not by the faith in one's heart.
Thanks TBax. I thought I understood you, though you did not come right out and state "the Witnesses are the only ones who are saved. All the rest is Babylon, destined for destruction". But I understand that is the belief of the Witness organization.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | luvnlife wrote:
If any religion believes that they are the one true, the only religion, that's kind of judgmental, isn't it? |
| Quote: | TBax responded:
What do you think of the Muslims, the Buddists, and the thousands of other non-Christian religions? If you think these are wrong are you being judgemental? Where do you draw the line? Judging people's motives is one thing. Judging if a religion is true or not is quite another. |
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TBax,
Yes, we need to be able to discern between right and wrong to the best of our frail human limits. We have been given the authority to distinguish for ourselves between what is right and wrong, we have the right to rebuke someone who has gone astray and to lead someone who is seeking God. We do NOT have the right to pass judgment on other people or religions though. We do NOT have the right to deem ourselves better than our fellow man. We cannot help those who are seeking find God if we are looking down on them. We have no right to determine whose name is in the book of life. We have no right to decide in our hearts who is going to be saved and who isn't. That power and that right was given to one far superior to us...our Lord Jesus Christ.
As far as your out-in-left-field comment about Muslims and Buddists, you are comparing apples and oranges.
I am comparing different kinds of apples (Jona Gold, Macintosh, Red Delicious, Granny Smith etc....). I am, in other words, drawing a comparison between churches that are of the Christian faith (just as the bible does).
You are comparing Christian and non-Christian churches. There is no comparison.
| Quote: | | TBax said: All those congregation were all the same religion. |
Christians are of the same faith. Just because you are JW and your neighbor may be Baptist and maybe a co-worker of yours is a practicing Lutheran, they are still your Christian brothers and sisters. They are followers of Christ just as you profess to be. They believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost just as you have professed to believe.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | | We do NOT have the right to pass judgment on other people or religions though. |
Hey, I am not passing judgement on false religion. God will. I am staying away from it as instructed, and warning others. We have the right to decide who is following the Bible and who isn't. It is clear those teaching babylonish doctrine are part of Babylon the Great.
| luvnlife wrote: | | We cannot help those who are seeking find God if we are looking down on them. |
True. How does realizing all other religions are false mean I am looking down on people?????? I look at all of them as potential brothers. It is up to them if they will follow the truth or not.
If we see people in a dangerous position it is our duty to warn them. To remain silent when people are on the wide road to destruction is irresponsible.
| luvnlife wrote: | | As far as your out-in-left-field comment about Muslims and Buddists, you are comparing apples and oranges. |
I disagree with you here 100%. Either you can judge if a religion is true or not OR you cannot. Just calling yourself "Christian" doesn't give you a licence to believe whatever you want and not be questioned or judged accordingly.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Christians are of the same faith. Just because you are JW and your neighbor may be Baptist and maybe a co-worker of yours is a practicing Lutheran, they are still your Christian brothers and sisters. They are followers of Christ just as you profess to be. They believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost just as you have professed to believe. |
I disagree 100% again. That is just a convienient way to get rid of accountability. Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, ect... are willing to kill their brothers in war. That is not love!  They are not my brothers nor do they teach the same things the Bible teaches. Excuse my bluntness, but to excuse their pagan doctrine and unchristian ways because they have a "Christian" fasade is simply ridiculous. 
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Jesus never know these ones who claimed to be Christians. WHY??????? Because they didn't do God's will. Having love for their neighbors, or even their brothers, and preaching the good news.
Matt 7:20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
If you want to excuse the bloody history of false religion and call them your brothers, that is your choice to make. I will not! If you want to believe that a religion who calls themselves "Christian" can believe whatever they want and still be acceptable to God, that is your call. I know different. If taking in knowledge of God and of Jesus is essential to salvation, should it matter if it is accurate knowledge, or can it be any made up knowledge of God and Jesus as well? I think you know the truth to that.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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