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Abortion and the Death Penalty


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Do you support:
Abortion on Demand
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
The Death Penalty for capital Crimes
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Abortion but not the Death Penalty
50%
 50%  [ 2 ]
The Death Penalty but not Abortion
50%
 50%  [ 2 ]
Abortion and the Death Penalty
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]

Author Message
Pondering
Lion King



Joined: 15 Sep 2005

Posts: 1296
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Abortion and the Death Penalty Reply with quote
Ok...this should probably be its own thread so...a Poll of sorts, though I encourage defense of positions...

do you support:

a) Abortion on demand
b) The death penalty
c) A not B
d) B not A
e) both A and B

sorry for all the edits...I was tweeking it after the first post Wink
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
c does the best job of summarizing my views, but not quite. There are situations in which the death penalty is ok. It also depends on what you mean by 'death penalty'.

In the broadest sense, the death penalty is a government's right to kill humans.

Should a government be allowed to kill people? Certainly under certain circumstances it should. For example, if a country is under attack, it's the government's duty to defend its people by killing as many as the attackers as is humanly possible.

I'd even argue that revenge killing is justified. Osama isn't currently attacking the U.S., but your government would certainly be justified in killing him just for revenge.

Once we start talking about a government being allowed to kill its own citizens, then things get very scary, and a lot less clear.
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Pondering
Lion King



Joined: 15 Sep 2005

Posts: 1296
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sorry I didn't clarify it better...I meant the death penalty as a method of judicial punishment....your example would fall, to me, under the umbrella of national self defense...so I yes, I meant the state sponsored execution of convicted felons for capital offenses...
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003

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Location: USA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
abortion on demand? What is the real meaning of this phrase?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pondering wrote:
sorry I didn't clarify it better...I meant the death penalty as a method of judicial punishment....your example would fall, to me, under the umbrella of national self defense...so I yes, I meant the state sponsored execution of convicted felons for capital offenses...


This definition doesn't get the job done, at least not anymore. Nowadays we have 'enemy combatants'. Apparently they're planning on putting a bunch of the prisoners from Gitmo on trial, and presumably they will execute them once they are found guilty.

If and when that happens, will it be an execution in the name of national defense or judicial punishment (or both)?

Usually national defense doesn't involve trials, but now it will, so the waters are being muddied considerably.

I think it would be perfectly fine to execute Osama's top lieutenants, but almost no civilized countries execute their own citizens in criminal cases anymore. I think the U.S. is the last one standing.

Abolishing executions is one of those leaps forward in civilization kind of like letting women vote. It's a kind of 'civilization milestone'.
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Pondering
Lion King



Joined: 15 Sep 2005

Posts: 1296
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
RevJP wrote:
abortion on demand? What is the real meaning of this phrase?


I meant it here in the sense of "elective surgery"...My sense is that the "anit-abortion" folks hold opinions that range from "never under any circumstances" to "allowable under very limited circumstances (rape, incest, save the life of the mother)....The polls question was meant it in the most liberal interpretation of the terms....

as for the death penalty, again, I meant it in the "traditional" sense of criminal proceedings (rape, murder)...

The Alqueda guys P#s is talking about is odd, we're sorta handling them like POWs, but also sorta like criminal felons...it's odd. Either declare them enemy combatants, hold tribunals and dispense with it or hold civil trials...
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pondering wrote:

as for the death penalty, again, I meant it in the "traditional" sense of criminal proceedings (rape, murder)...


I'm against this type of death penalty. For one a government should never have the right to kill its own citizens. That's just WAY too much power for a government to have. And secondly, rotting behind bars for decades is in many ways a crueler punishment than death, so vengeance is served nicely.

Also, in practice, certain criminals such as pedophiles and other sex offenders frequently receive 'extra-judicial' punishments from the other inmates which are probably worse than death.

So there's really no need for it.

Then there's the other argument I mentioned before, of 'being civilized'.
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RevJP
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So, what you are saying P, is that vengeance, cruel and extraordinary punishment is more civilized than euthanasia?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RevJP wrote:
So, what you are saying P, is that vengeance, cruel and extraordinary punishment is more civilized than euthanasia?


Nope, because I don't consider abortion to be euthanasia, and the vengeance / cruel and unusual unusual punishment is not being carried out by the state, but rather by the other inmates.

There's a big difference between the state having the power to execute child rapists, and the state incarcerating child rapists with other bad people where they may or may not decide to do terrible things to the person. The state's hands are much more clean in this scenario than if it killed the guy.

As for euthanasia, the right to die is another issue which is relevant here. I think that people should have the right to terminate their own lives under certain circumstances.
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy



Joined: 26 Mar 2005

Posts: 5881

Location: Memphis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
P1234567890 wrote:
Nope, because I don't consider abortion to be euthanasia, and the vengeance / cruel and unusual unusual punishment is not being carried out by the state, but rather by the other inmates.

There's a big difference between the state having the power to execute child rapists, and the state incarcerating child rapists with other bad people where they may or may not decide to do terrible things to the person. The state's hands are much more clean in this scenario than if it killed the guy.
"We didn't kill him, it was the lions we left him with!"
"We didn't kill him, it was the bullets what did it!"
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FFT wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
Nope, because I don't consider abortion to be euthanasia, and the vengeance / cruel and unusual unusual punishment is not being carried out by the state, but rather by the other inmates.

There's a big difference between the state having the power to execute child rapists, and the state incarcerating child rapists with other bad people where they may or may not decide to do terrible things to the person. The state's hands are much more clean in this scenario than if it killed the guy.
"We didn't kill him, it was the lions we left him with!"
"We didn't kill him, it was the bullets what did it!"


If you're saying that this is no better than the state doing it directly and openly, then you have a point, but there aren't many alternatives. Either you let the criminal go or you punish him. Punishment for the worst criminals is either death or life in prison. Life in prison means contact with other inmates, or complete solitary confinement. A life in prison term involving contact with other inmates seems to be the most civilized and humane option.
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
P, I'm looking specifically at what you posted regarding punishment:

Quote:
And secondly, rotting behind bars for decades is in many ways a crueler punishment than death, so vengeance is served nicely.

Also, in practice, certain criminals such as pedophiles and other sex offenders frequently receive 'extra-judicial' punishments from the other inmates which are probably worse than death.


juxtaposed with:

Quote:
Abolishing executions is one of those leaps forward in civilization kind of like letting women vote. It's a kind of 'civilization milestone'.


So, my question remains:

So, what you are saying P, is that vengeance, cruel and extraordinary punishment is more civilized than euthanasia?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, euthanasia is certainly more civilized than vengeance and punishment, but the point I'm trying to make is that in many ways, one of the most civilized way of punishing serious criminals (incarceration for life) is also the cruelest and serves the very human need for vengeance nicely. In other words, we don't need executions.

Of course, the *most* civilized solution would be to rehabilitate serious criminals and have some kind of healing process for the victims which doesn't involve nasty punishments and the waste of a human life. But being human beings, there isn't much chance of making some high-minded idealistic plan like this work.
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Of course, the *most* civilized solution would be to rehabilitate serious criminals and have some kind of healing process for the victims which doesn't involve nasty punishments and the waste of a human life. But being human beings, there isn't much chance of making some high-minded idealistic plan like this work.
Perhaps instead of blaming humanity you should actually devise and propose a workable plan?

You did call it 'high-minded' and 'idealistic', but what does that mean exactly? Can serious criminals be 'rehabilitated'? If so, then let's see the plan for this to work, and the evidence that indeed it would work.

I seriously doubt that many, if any, people would reject a more 'civilized' solution if indeed one could be devised simply out of a desire for vengeance, but I suppose it is easier to preempt the consideration or implementation of any workable solution with claims against the frailty of human nature.

In my business life when an employee doesn't like something, or faces a 'problem' and they come to me to complain about it, I require them to bring to the table 2-3 workable solutions for consideration, along with their complaint. The interesting thing is that sometimes we come up with better ways of doing things and sometimes the individual realizes that we are doing the best that is feasible and swallows their empty complaints and gets on with their work.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
RevJP wrote:
Quote:
Of course, the *most* civilized solution would be to rehabilitate serious criminals and have some kind of healing process for the victims which doesn't involve nasty punishments and the waste of a human life. But being human beings, there isn't much chance of making some high-minded idealistic plan like this work.
Perhaps instead of blaming humanity you should actually devise and propose a workable plan?

You did call it 'high-minded' and 'idealistic', but what does that mean exactly? Can serious criminals be 'rehabilitated'? If so, then let's see the plan for this to work, and the evidence that indeed it would work.


The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a 'workable solution'. Rehabilitation programs are only as good as the amount of resources (money) that society is willing to put into them. If the people want tax cuts, then how on Earth could we possibly pay for rehabilitation programs??? On top of that, criminals definitely are not a priority for taxpayer spending in anyone's books. I'd rather see the money put into daycare programs, universal health care, libraries, the space program, and about 10 other things before spending it on criminal rehab.

And besides, we're talking about the worst of the worst among criminals here... Real scumbags and viciously evil human beings. It's far from clear that any reasonable percentage of them can be rehabilitated no matter how much money we throw at the problem.

Clearly this isn't an easy problem to solve.
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