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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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 Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: The language account. |
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Genesis 10:32These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
| JB wrote: | | As I reviewed the history of language in these four regions during that period of time, I made some very interesting observations. |
Ok. Let us observe them together:
| Quote: | | 1.) Egypt spoke Sumarian around the time of Nimrod. |
Do you mean "Sumerian?"
| Wikipedia wrote: | | Sumer (Akkadian: Šumeru; Sumerian: KI-EN-GIR, "Land of the Lords of Brightness", or "land of the Sumerian tongue" possibly Biblical Shinar), located in southern Mesopotamia, is the earliest known civilization in the world. It lasted from the first settlement of Eridu in the Ubaid period (late 6th millennium BC) through the Uruk period (4th millennium BC) and the Dynastic periods (3rd millennium BC) until the rise of Babylon in the early 2nd millennium BC. The term "Sumerian" applies to all speakers of the Sumerian language. |
If so,
Genesis 10:6-12 The Hamites
6 The sons of Ham:
Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan.
7 The sons of Cush:
Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteca.
The sons of Raamah:
Sheba and Dedan.
8 Cush was the father of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD." 10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah 12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.
| Quote: | | 2.) Mesopotamia spoke Akkadian which has an interesting long term history. |
| Wikipedia wrote: | Mesopotamia (from the Greek meaning "The land between the two rivers")[1] is an area geographically located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, largely corresponding to Iraq, western Iran and eastern Syria.
Sumer in southern Mesopotamia is commonly known as the "Cradle of civilization". Cities in Mesopotamia later served as capitals of the Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Mitanni, Neo-Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Parthian, Sassanid and Abbasid empires. |
3.) Indus valley, is still undecipherable.
Genesis 10:4 The sons of Javan:
Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittim and the Rodanim. 5 (From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)
| Quote: | | 4.) China used pictograms, as their language, before and after the death of Nimrod. |
Genesis 11:2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
| Quote: | Just to give in a little on this subject, I do agree that Egypt adopted the Akkadian language in some areas but not in all.
Mesopotamia was the only one that went entirely to this Akkadian language which eventually became the Semetic Akkadian language or what we know today as possibly the Hebrew or Aramaic language. It never changed except for in it's etymological structures.
This creates a little problem in interpretation. Genesis 11 says that The whole earth used the same language. Do you see the problem that I have with this text? |
No. Sorry, I dont see the same problem, I'm sure it is because I know that all nations came from Noah's sons as scripture states.
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The HeKkLeR |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| HeKkLeR wrote: | | No. Sorry, I dont see the same problem, I'm sure it is because I know that all nations came from Noah's sons as scripture states. |
A circular argument, then.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
I would like to begin by saying that it isn't about me being right or wrong. When I am right, I learn nothing and when I am wrong I gain new insights.
As we march down this road and address these issues, I would like to do it in a Christian manner with out the insults or snide remarks. I trust that we can do that. I know that from time to time I can be a little sarcastic. But we already got the formal introductions out of the way. And beside, I think we have an audience.
As I reviewed your notes, I noticed you trusted Wikipedia quite a bit. I guess that this is a good place to start.
Your third response Is where I would like to start. That is the Indus Valley. I shared with you about the Harappa digs and you suggested that this is where the sons of Javan traveled. The Harappas digs are at least 150 miles inland. What would prompt them to be that far inland if the scriptures clearly pointed that they were maritime people?
Also, why would there language be so un-connectable to any other language of that day?
I think that this is a good place to start. When we are finished here we can move on to one of the other areas. Let's open one can of worms at a time.
Your Brother in Christ
JB
PS Sorry about the spelling error. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2837
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm rather more intrigued with the statement by JB that the Chinese were a people with a separate language during the life of Nimrod.
I eagerly await some citation.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | I would like to begin by saying that it isn't about me being right or wrong. When I am right, I learn nothing and when I am wrong I gain new insights. |
Great, then we share the same spirit! 
| Quote: | | As I reviewed your notes, I noticed you trusted Wikipedia quite a bit. I guess that this is a good place to start. |
Sure. Encyclopedias are great. The Bible is even better, I would say. But Wikipedia is cool. 
| Quote: | | Your third response Is where I would like to start. That is the Indus Valley. I shared with you about the Harappa digs and you suggested that this is where the sons of Javan traveled. The Harappas digs are at least 150 miles inland. What would prompt them to be that far inland if the scriptures clearly pointed that they were maritime people? |
Because the Indus Valley Civilization was a maritime people, I would suggest?
I am not saying who came from which of Noah's sons, but that, as Holy Scripture states, | Quote: | Genesis 10:32These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood. |
| Quote: | | I think that this is a good place to start. When we are finished here we can move on to one of the other areas. Let's open one can of worms at a time. |
If you want me to help you in your history studies, it sounds like a pretty cool adventure. I just may do that.
But I suggest to you that you begin any of your studies with the knowledge that everyone came from Noah and his Sons. The Holy Bible is very clear about that, so that would be your best source, in my opinion.
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The HeKkLeR |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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HeKkLer
I am very aware of the Biblical account of the flood and since, I moved past the basics of that study, I am ready for a clearer interpretation, seeing that history challenges the traditional Nimrod Position.
The Maritime people were not at the the Harappa dig site.
A matter of fact that site has no connection with any of the Biblical groups mentioned during that time.
So the question that we need to answer is, "who were these people"?
Your friend in Christ |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Wikipedia wrote: | During 4300 - 3200 BCE of the chalcolithic period (copper age), the Indus Valley Civilization area shows ceramic similarities with southern Turkmenistan and northern Iran which suggest considerable mobility and trade. During the Early Harappan period (about 3200–2600 BCE), similarities in pottery, seals, figurines, ornaments etc. document intensive caravan trade with Central Asia and the Iranian plateau.[39]
Judging from the dispersal of Indus civilisation artifacts, the trade networks, economically, integrated a huge area, including portions of Afghanistan, the coastal regions of Persia, northern and western India, and Mesopotamia.
There was an extensive maritime trade network operating between the Harappan and Mesopotamian civilisations as early as the middle Harappan Phase, with much commerce being handled by "middlemen merchants from Dilmun" (modern Bahrain and Failaka located in the Persian Gulf).[40] Such long-distance sea-trade became feasible with the innovative development of plank-built watercraft, equipped with a single central mast supporting a sail of woven rushes or cloth.
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The HeKkLeR |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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HeKkLer
The Indus Valley was on the coastline. The Harappa dig is in approximately 150 miles north by east. This the Harappas dig. That doesn't mean that this was the place of the Harappa commerce. But even if it were, it still leaves us with the fact that the tablets that they have are of a language that is undecipherable to this date.
The technology was great there. They had plumbing and many modern amenities. But, as you claim and as the scriptures seem to indicate, there was one language. The question still remains, "What was this language". Genesis 11:1 Now the whole earth used the same language. By 1600 BC. Harappas faded away into the sunset and ceased to exist. The Indus Valley still exists. The city that they are digging up now doesn't exist. It is in ruins. If it were still there the Neighbors would be mad about them digging up their lawns. (Just kidding)
The debate can go on about the Maritime state of this dig sit, but because of it's location I doubt that this site refers to the Harrapan Middle phase you referenced from Wikipedia. I have a map of the dig site and I also have a map of the Harappan Middle Phase. Some of the areas of the Middle Phase still exist and are populated. Not the city of the Harrapa dig.
I am still waiting for a response on the Language of that area.
God Bless and Keep seeking the King |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
Since I have a litle time this morning, I though that I would present, at least in part, my thoughts on Chinese language.
In the year 2000 The Chinese Government agreed to release the ancient Documents bearing the history of the Chinese Dynasties. The project is known as the Xia-Shang-Zou-Chronology Project. It gives a complete list of the Emperors a, their families and the length of thier dynasty.
The Xia Dynasty was in place from 2070 to 1600 BC.
During the period of this Dynsaty all the documents were written in pictograph form. The Babylonian rule under King Nimrod had moved from Hieroglyphs and Cuneiforms and were now using an alphabet form.
Again we see a difficulty with the one language system. The Chinese form was non-phonetic and the Babylonian was phonetic. If the influences of Nimrod were really all encompassing, then why would the scriptures state that they all spoke one language but yet the Chinese had their own language system? Also, if the world was one and Nimrod was the great conqueror then why did China have its own separate and independent Government?
By the way, prior to the Xia Dynasty, China was controlled by a Monarch. If there is, by chance , any question about the time of King Nimrod.
You can type in Xia-Shang_Zou-Chronology project to find support for the first portion of this post.
Can't wait to hear from you. God Bless my friend. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
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If your history studies do not match up with your bible studies, then consider your history studies to be flawed, and not that the Word of God is flawed.
You'll get someplace a lot easier.
| Quote: | The Xia Dynasty was in place from 2070 to 1600 BC.
During the period of this Dynsaty all the documents were written in pictograph form. The Babylonian rule under King Nimrod had moved from Hieroglyphs and Cuneiforms and were now using an alphabet form.
Again we see a difficulty with the one language system. |
No. "We" do not see a difficulty with one language system. You do, because you doubt the Word of God.
| Quote: | | If the influences of Nimrod were really all encompassing, then why would the scriptures state that they all spoke one language but yet the Chinese had their own language system? |
Who said the influences of Nimrod were all encompassing? 
Genesis 10:9He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD."
If Nimrod hunted, then there was surely game for the hunt. Which means that his influence was not "all encompassing" (I am still wondering where you got that from  ), but that his influence was mighty among men.
I think you have made a left turn in your studies, when you perhaps should have gone right? 
All nations came from Noah and his sons, as the Bible states. Nothing you say can change that, and everything you say against it goes against Scripture.
Like I said, if you would like for me to help you in your studies, that is one thing. But for you to protest what scripture states is another thing entirely.
Jesus is surely the Way, the Truth and the Light. Follow Him, and you'll find your answers.
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The HeKkLeR |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
I don't protest scriptures, I protest stick in the mud approaches to interpretation that do more damage than good.
A great spiritual leader was once asked, is the world round or is it flat? He said, the world is flat. He referenced the text that quoted the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:12)
Because of that and many other foolish statements, made by Christians, that just don't take the time to really study, but instead say, "the Bible is the cure all fix all", do more damage to the Christian world than all the atheists combined.
Since you refuse to address this I will consider this a concession on your part and will not quote any more on this. But If you would like to continue, I would be more than happy to work and learn together with you and others on this forum.
I embrace the scriptures. I have spent thirty eight years in devoted study and I still have much to learn. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Since you refuse to address this |
What have I refused to address??
| Quote: | | I will consider this a concession on your part and will not quote any more on this. |
You can consider what you want. It will still be wrong if it is not true.
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The HeKkLeR |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
You still haven't helped me to understand why they had a separate language and it wasn't even a dialect form that you eluded to in your earliest posts on this matter.
It wasn't the same language and it wasn't even a dialect of the language of Mesopotamia. Must be somebody buried all those tablets to confound the world or to attempt to be funny. Listen HeKkLer, those tablets aren't going away any time soon. I guess this will be another dent in the Christian armor.
God Bless My Friend and keep seeking the truth |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | HeKkLer,
You still haven't helped me to understand why they had a separate language and it wasn't even a dialect form that you eluded to in your earliest posts on this matter. |
Then do not listen to me, listen to God. He can open up your eyes.
| Quote: | | It wasn't the same language and it wasn't even a dialect of the language of Mesopotamia. |
Genesis 117 "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
[c] Genesis 11:9 That is, Babylon; Babel sounds like the Hebrew for confused .
| Quote: | | I guess this will be another dent in the Christian armor. |
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The HeKkLeR |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1042
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
Let's entertain a thought for a moment. And this is just a thought. How about the possibility that the flood wasn't global as some interpret and that the Chinese and certain groups weren't affect by the flood. Many Scientists agree that there was a great flood but they also agree that it wasn't global. Often times when we read all or whole world in the scriptures, it refers to the known world. This is just an Idea that I am running by you for you thoughts and ideas. This might account for those unexplainable language barriers that exist.
During the early Roman Empire, they considered themselves to be the whole world. Is this a possibility?
God Bless and keep seeking the King |
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