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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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P, what exactly is your question? At first it seems that you are asking if we do something that God did is it okay, now it seems as if you are asking if what God does is okay. Which is it?
BTW, why won't you spend the time to explore the philosophical, theological, and scientific implications and ramifications of what you are asking?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
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Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P, what exactly is your question? At first it seems that you are asking if we do something that God did is it okay, now it seems as if you are asking if what God does is okay. Which is it? |
It's both, I suspect. Is that a problem?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's both, I suspect. Is that a problem? |
It is in a way. I dislike discussing one issue just to have the conversation flipped around because the originator didn't mean what he/she said.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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It goes both ways. If it's okay for God to do whatever He likes with His creation without explanation since it's His creation--even life, it should be okay for humans to do what they like with their creations--even if they're alive. It's the same argument. If the only justification is basically "Well, He's the creator after all" then that should hold equally true for human creators.
But then one can point to what can quite easily be perceived as moral failings on God's part and ask if it is okay for Him to do whatsoever He pleases with His creation merely because He is so above it.
Basically, if it's okay for God to do it, it should be okay for humans to do the same sort of thing--but is it even okay for God to do it?
It's certainly a bit of a compound question, true.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | P123 wrote: |
IF humans eventually figure out how to take atoms and organize them into living things, then do we have a moral right to kill those living things? |
Not unless you have the power to give it back again.
In other words, if you give life and call that person Zeno3, then take Zeno3's life, can you then restore that specific life (Zeno3) once again? |
So with respect to God killing the innocent babies and children in Egypt, it was ok because He could give their lives back again? |
Yup
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
So with respect to God killing the innocent babies and children in Egypt, it was ok because He could give their lives back again? |
Yup |
Did he give their lives back again?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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FFT, your last post must have come to me psychically. I made a thread entitled "Is God Cruel", which addresses the very same things you alluded to, before I read your reply.
The question that really comes to me is: does God do whatever He does capriciously?
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Pondering
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Joined: 15 Sep 2005
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Pondering
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | at the risk of dragging this off-topic...I'm just curious about who supports:
a) Abortion on demand
b) The death penalty
Perhaps I should break that off into a separate thread? |
Abortion on demand: Yes. Death penalty: Only in extraordinary circumstances.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The question that really comes to me is: does God do whatever He does capriciously? |
Exodus
8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, just as the Lord had predicted.
8:19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, “It is the finger of God!” But Pharaoh’s heart remained hard,45 and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had predicted.
10:11 The Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, in order to display these signs of mine before him,
10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not release the Israelites.
10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to release them.
11:9 The Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh will not listen to you, so that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.”
11:10 So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not release the Israelites from his land.
Predicting that the Pharaoh will harden his heart and then doing it for him just so that His wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt? And here's another question: what wonders? Does God consider killing all of the firstborn to be wonders?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
So with respect to God killing the innocent babies and children in Egypt, it was ok because He could give their lives back again? |
Yup |
Did he give their lives back again? |
Yup. That's what the crucifixion is all about.
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misery is optional. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | It goes both ways. If it's okay for God to do whatever He likes with His creation without explanation since it's His creation--even life, it should be okay for humans to do what they like with their creations--even if they're alive. It's the same argument. If the only justification is basically "Well, He's the creator after all" then that should hold equally true for human creators.
But then one can point to what can quite easily be perceived as moral failings on God's part and ask if it is okay for Him to do whatsoever He pleases with His creation merely because He is so above it.
Basically, if it's okay for God to do it, it should be okay for humans to do the same sort of thing--but is it even okay for God to do it?
It's certainly a bit of a compound question, true. |
It's not a compound question at all. We as humans can take a life, but we cannot restore it. Therefore, it is wrong to take something, especially something precious, if it cannot be given back.
If God take YOUR life - YOU, FFT, He also has the power to restore YOU - FFT once again. Can humans make that same claim?
When a fetus is aborted, that individual will NEVER be restored no matter how many times that mother gets pregnant again. That individual, and that individual's family line is gone forever.
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
So with respect to God killing the innocent babies and children in Egypt, it was ok because He could give their lives back again? |
Yup |
Did he give their lives back again? |
Yup. That's what the crucifixion is all about. |
Jesus saved all of the people who died before he was even born? Don't you have to accept Jesus in order for Him to save you? How can you accept Jesus if you've already been dead for (thousands of) years?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Predicting that the Pharaoh will harden his heart and then doing it for him just so that His wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt? And here's another question: what wonders? Does God consider killing all of the firstborn to be wonders? |
Exo 10:1-2 THE LORD said to Moses, Go to Pharaoh, for I have made his heart hard, and his servants' hearts, that I might show these My signs [of divine power] before him, (2) And that you may recount in the ears of your son and of your grandson what I have done in derision of the Egyptians and what things I have [repeatedly] done there--My signs [of divine power] done among them--that you may recognize and know that I am the Lord.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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