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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Logic is often considered to be a subset of philosophy, but it is a distinct creature.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Don't put words in my mouth. I mean we have zero verified information about God at all. |
Ana, if by 'verified', you do not mean scientifically empirical, what do you mean? We do have information about God, as I've cited. You can choose to dismiss such information, but the information still exists, which is all that is necessary for my premise to stand.
| Ana wrote: | | There is no scientific evidence that there are no ink pens on the surface of Mercury either, even though there is logical evidence to support the claim. You also haven't verified that there is logical evidence supporting God's existence or any of the qualities you're attributing to him to make your case, and even if you had, my previous sentence would render that irrelevant anyways. |
I would agree by way of common sense (informal logic) that there are no ink pens on the surface of Mercury, of course that does not make the existence of such impossible. Therefore your statement about irrelevancy is invalid.
My argument, as formulated in this thread, does not require that I provide evidence directly supporting the existence of God. My argument requires that I provide evidence supporting the concept of intelligent design.
The Boing employee example I provided illustrates that intelligence is an element necessary in the production of 757's. Likewise intelligence, albeit of a different form, is an element necessary in the production of ant hills. Thus, in these examples, an understanding of two different forms of intelligent design are clearly seen from those things that have been made. One form of this intelligence is attributable to human will and thought process, the other (guiding the ants) is a rather natural form of intelligence.
It can be logically deduced that this natural form of intelligence is what guides a sperm cell in it's mission to fertilize an egg in the formation of a human life. Furthermore, this natural form of intelligence is evident in many things.
My conclusion as previously stated is that everything has a maker, everything has a cause. I would like to expand on that.....It can logically be deduced that this natural form of intelligence is of an infinite and omnipresent nature, and is not only the cause of current causes , such as ant hills being built and humans being born, but also logically answers the scientific and philosophic question of first cause.
Based on information given us about God, and considering the logically reached conclusion above, it can be deduced that God is the cause above all causes and the cause of causes......quite simply put.....God is the creator and sustainer of all creation....a conclusion that can be, and is, reached by even the most casual observers......without the use of formal logic, nor by way of scientific methodology. |
Dust, I'm not sure why you chose to respond to me about this in this thread instead of the one we were talking about this in, but the bottom line is that you used circular reasoning right here:
| Quote: | | Observation and the application of common sense are fairly good indicators. Now utilizing these same factors and considerations, lets take a look at ants...i.e...eusocial insects, and the Boing engineers...i.e...humans, and the entirety of creation. Couple this with the information we have about God, which has been handed down and/or tacitly-known (in the way ants know how to build an ant hill perhaps), presumably, from the inception of mankind, and we reach a clear indication that there is an intellegence behind the design of these things. No matter how intricate or simple the initial design from which all things come, we know by our observations that everything has a maker, everything has a cause. |
In other words, according to you, if we use as a premise that God exists, then we can use as a conclusion that there is intelligence behind the scenes. Well duh.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Your notion of 'first cause' is quaint and provincial. This is not how the universe works. Your common sense ideas and arguments don't work with the Big Bang. They simply don't apply. |
I wouldn't be so quick to make such a determination.
If we apply this same genuine and natural common-sense/informal-logic, in conjunction with artificial formal logic, to scientific findings and postulations, we can see that the natural intelligence innate in ants is also detectable all the way down to the sub-atomic level. Science indicates that even innanimate objects are animated at a molecular level (see the Theory of Electricity, Quantum Electrodynamics and various other sub-atomic areas of study). Just as natural intelligence is apparent in ants working together to build an ant hill, so it is also apparent in the molecules which work together to form the ant itself. Even the molecules which form the material from which the ant hill is made, are animated at a sub-atomic level.
Now lets make a quantum leap, as it were, to the molecular structure of the universe, and we can see that this natural intelligence is at work everywhere and at all times in the production and the sustaining of the entire universe and everything in it.
So it is, among the ashes and rubble of the ID movement, the intelligent design concept stands firm.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Dust, I'm not sure why you chose to respond to me about this in this thread instead of the one we were talking about this in |
Well, it was an error, but considering the subject, and that at least part of the discussion in the other thread was morphing into a debate about logic, this thread seems fine.
Besides, I'm not defending the official ID movement. You guys have every right to rip em apart if you like.
| Ana wrote: | | you used circular reasoning |
Actually I coupled the age old, and nearly universal belief in God, with my presented reasoning.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: |
| Ana wrote: | | you used circular reasoning |
Actually I coupled the age old, and nearly universal belief in God, with my presented reasoning. |
Exactly. You used belief in God as a premise that there is an intelligence behind the scenes. Both circular and redundant (because I very much doubt you think of God as an imbecile in this 'reasoning' you're doing).
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Ana,
Circular reason is only a fallacy, because it does not prove the point. I gave a valid premise, a valid conclusion, and then presented an unformal appeal, by coupling my premise and conclusion with the age old, and nearly universal belief in God. My point is.....this belief in God is real (it's huge), don't just disregard it. Hmmm..it's like...'yeah, I'm going to discredit what billions upon billions of people (thru-out history) believe, and have believed, based upon what I have come to realize'.
Along with these billions, you can discredit my articulations on the basis of formality (and in this case unjustifiably) if you like, but some times it's best to take the higher ground, fill in the gaps if necessary, do some contemplating, and truly attempt to understand.
How do ants know how to build the perfect ant hill? Why do almost all people who ever lived believe in God?
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: |
How do ants know how to build the perfect ant hill? |
Because the ones who didn't figure out how died. The ones who did figure it out survived to pass that on to future generations.
| Dust wrote: |
Why do almost all people who ever lived believe in God? |
Because magic used to be a really convenient way of explaining things that we don't understand, and it's a very nice way of controlling people and getting them to let you do it. Fear tactics and promises of the ultimate reward are pretty effective too. More to the point though, most people who ever lived believed what their parents and societies told them when they were children. That's why Muslims' kids don't spontaneously become Jews and Buddhists' kids don't spontaneously become Mormons. This is no secret. Why do you think the ID movement is so geared toward children, and yet virtually no attention is paid to university curriculum?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Because the ones who didn't figure out how died. The ones who did figure it out survived to pass that on to future generations. |
Ok. I'm going to deduce that ants do not have the capacity to figure things out, nor do they posses a creative side of the brain , thus ants are a mechanism of nature, designed and produced by nature for a particular purpose (a sign of intelligent design and providence?). The ant hill is not a sign that ants are intelligent, but rather that ants posess unlearned tacit or tacit-like knowledge and/or ability.
The 757 was built and designed for a particular purpose, and is a sign of intelligence.
| Ana wrote: | | Because magic used to be a really convenient way of explaining things that we don't understand, and it's a very nice way of controlling people and getting them to let you do it. Fear tactics and promises of the ultimate reward are pretty effective too. More to the point though, most people who ever lived believed what their parents and societies told them when they were children. That's why Muslims' kids don't spontaneously become Jews and Buddhists' kids don't spontaneously become Mormons. This is no secret. Why do you think the ID movement is so geared toward children, and yet virtually no attention is paid to university curriculum? |
Ana, I think you are just a little bit off the mark.
The evidence indicates that belief in God and/or gods is universal, unlearned, tacit or tacit-like, and thus natural. Who and/or what God is....is learned. So, it's at this point, that god and/or gods, can be fashioned by men to be whatever they want him to be (enter your theory)....or perhaps....actual true revelation about God Almighty can be garnered. At any rate, given the natural belief in God, most people at least have hope for the latter.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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The details of people's 'revelation' are so wildly inconsistent that I don't know how anyone can think of it as reliable at all. I notice also that people attribute these 'revelations' from whatever god they already believe in. It's not always the same god giving these 'revelations' to people.
Also, this is false:
| Dust wrote: | | The evidence indicates that belief in God and/or gods is universal, unlearned, tacit or tacit-like, and thus natural. |
It's false because some people are never introduced to religion of any kind and do not come to any kind of conclusion about gods. However, you say there is evidence to support your claim, so I would like to see it, so please do share it. I think if it were true, though, people would very often come to the same conclusion as everyone else in the world (if there were actually a god we were programmed to come to conclusions about), or else if we were naturally wired to believe in a god, without calibration, we wouldn't necessarily come to the same conclusions as the culture we grew up in. So, calibrated or uncalibrated, this supposed natural belief in god(s) does not match up with what we actually see going on. Anyways, this evidence of yours please?
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7613
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: |
Circular reason is only a fallacy, because it does not prove the point. I gave a valid premise, a valid conclusion, and then presented an unformal appeal, by coupling my premise and conclusion with the age old, and nearly universal belief in God. My point is.....this belief in God is real (it's huge), don't just disregard it. Hmmm..it's like...'yeah, I'm going to discredit what billions upon billions of people (thru-out history) believe, and have believed, based upon what I have come to realize'.
Along with these billions, you can discredit my articulations on the basis of formality (and in this case unjustifiably) if you like, but some times it's best to take the higher ground, fill in the gaps if necessary, do some contemplating, and truly attempt to understand.
How do ants know how to build the perfect ant hill? Why do almost all people who ever lived believe in God? |
I love the way you are perfectly happy to appeal to the authority of the masses, the vast majority of whom are scientifically illiterate but you refuse to acknowledge the authority of humanity's best experts who are the most scientifically literate people ever to have lived.
Unless you can show that human beings are some kind of God detectors sort of like living antennas for picking up His heavenly presence, then your argument is sunk because it's a fallacious appeal to the masses.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Dust previously wrote: | | The evidence indicates that belief in God and/or gods is universal, unlearned, tacit or tacit-like, and thus natural. |
| Ana wrote: | | It's false because some people are never introduced to religion of any kind and do not come to any kind of conclusion about gods. However, you say there is evidence to support your claim, so I would like to see it, so please do share it. |
That ants build ant hills is common knowledge. That humans believe in God, is common knowledge as well (not withstanding a few anomalies).
From Wikipedia under the heading Origin of religion.....
| Quote: | | Though religious behaviour varies widely between the world's cultures, in its widest sense religion is a cultural universal found in all human populations. |
Hey P,
So, I am appealing to the masses, big deal. It's an informal appeal. Even if it were formal, an appeal to the masses, is only a only a fallacy, because it does not prove the point. I provided a premise and a conclusion that follows, and then I set before you, a little tid-bit for consideration............If ants can have universal tacit or tacit-like knowledge, why can't humans? The fact that belief in God is universal would tend to support they can, and do.
It just occured to me.......a person who does not believe in God, is like an ant that does not know how to do his part in building an ant hill.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I'm suspicious of your splitting of logic into 'formal' and 'informal'.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7613
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | I'm suspicious of your splitting of logic into 'formal' and 'informal'. |
As you should be. There are two types of logic: Formal logic, and unsound reasoning.
People can of course use formal logic intuitively without ever having studied it, but that unfortunately is not what Dust is doing.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7613
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: |
So, I am appealing to the masses, big deal. It's an informal appeal. Even if it were formal, an appeal to the masses, is only a only a fallacy, because it does not prove the point. I provided a premise and a conclusion that follows,
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I don't think you did. Spell it out for me.
| Dust wrote: |
and then I set before you, a little tid-bit for consideration............If ants can have universal tacit or tacit-like knowledge, why can't humans?
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We can and do. Human babies have a tacit understanding that they're supposed to suck on anything you put in their mouths, and it's not like anyone has to teach them this. There are many other examples.
| Dust wrote: |
The fact that belief in God is universal would tend to support they can, and do.
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First of all, belief in God is not universal. There are plenty of people who don't believe in Him. But secondly, there are animals which believe in a higher power as well. A good example is gorillas (sorry, I can't remember the name of the species) which bang sticks on the ground in order to make noise and intimidate their rivals. The gorilla which can bang the loudest gets all the babes. But when they hear thunder, they all look up into the sky and then pick up their sticks and start banging them on the ground.
In any case, I don't know what point you're trying to make: That our belief in God is built into our genes? The truth is that most humans are 'followers' by nature rather than leaders, and *that* is what is built into our genes because of natural selection. Tribes of humans in which a certain percentage willingly submitted to authority and leadership on average did better than tribes where there was lots of infighting and intrigue.
The ubiquity of religion is just a manifestation of this instinctive human submissiveness to authority.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Ana,
P,
Have I implied that universal belief in God is proof of God's existence?
Or
Have I implied that universal belief in God is tacit in nature, similar to the tacit ant-hill-building information an ant posesses.
I think you'll find it's the latter.
Where's the fallacy?
Then again, circular-reasoning, and appealling-to-the-masses are only logical fallacies because in-and-of themselves they do not formally prove the point, but informally they can be contemplated. Kind of an open ended....what does it mean....type of contemplation. Even though this type of reasoning may not formally prove the point, sometimes common sense tells us what it means.
| P wrote: | | The ubiquity of religion is just a manifestation of this instinctive human submissiveness to authority. |
Or perhaps belief in God is instinctual (if we want to use that term), which then leads to religion.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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