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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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You still haven't answered my question TB,
Why is this system of things still in operation?
RR |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Jason David BeDuhn Ok lets see what scholars say about his book.
| Quote: | | To sum up: No legitimate scholar of New Testament Greek would accept Beduhn’s claims on these various points. The real bias and concomitant inaccuracies regarding “Truth in Translation” is painfully present in Beduhn’s own work. Few (if any) New Testament Greek scholars or grammarians will be convinced or persuaded by Beduhn’s outrageous claims. New Testament Greek scholarship thankfully remains the better in this regard. |
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. (2004; 2006). Faith and Mission Volume 21 (vnp.21.3.108-21.3.109). Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
| Quote: | | Throughout his book, BeDuhn’s writing is a mixture of some helpful information combined with fallacious arguments and inadequate treatments of various texts. These are not easy to untangle. In this reviewer’s opinion, the weaknesses of the monograph sufficiently outweigh the strengths so as to render the work essentially worthless for the purpose intended. There are much better texts available on the subject of biblical translation, and interested readers would find it more profitable to consult them instead. |
Westminster Theological Seminary. (2004; 2005). Westminster Theological Journal Volume 66 (vnp.66.2.449). Westminster Theological Seminary.
I have spared the criticisms of this book and his translation errors. Do you have any other scholars that you would like to present? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | You still haven't answered my question TB,
Why is this system of things still in operation?
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The scriptures answered that question.
Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
Jesus gave us a vital work to do. That work will be completed and then the end will come.
From 2 Peter 3:9 what promise is it that Jehovah is not slow respecting?
Last edited by TBax on Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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ragman13,
Obviously the Southern Baptists and the Presbyterian don't want his conclusions to be true.  That would be like the Pharisees admitting Jesus was the Christ of God.
Because some biased scholars criticise an unbiased scholar that means his work is no good. He is an unbiased individual who was willing to be honest despite popular opinion.
According to your argument, in the first century Jesus should have been rejected as the messiah because the scholars rejected him and had him killed. 
Attacking a Bible is lame. You can use any Bible you want. Reading my Bible isn't necessary to recieve the truth. Where there are differences we can explore them. 
Regarding Zech 12:10
You believe the Bible says God was pierced?
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
If no man has seen God, how did they pierce Him?
Regarding John 1:1-
If Jesus was with God then how could he be God???
The greek speaking people would have understood that Jesus was not "the God" as the definite article isn't there.
Literal:
Rev 1:1 unvieling OF Jesus Christ which Gives to Him the God.
Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,
If Jesus is God why is he shown as seperate from God? Notice that scripture doesn't differentiate him from the Father, but from God?
Look up the scriptures with whatever Bible you choose, and answer the questions.  |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | RR, The scriptures answered that question. Jesus gave us a vital work to do. That work will be completed and then the end will come. |
Let me ask, what is the purpose of "this work"?
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
It is a life saving work. You couldn't get that from the scriptures?
2 Pet 3:9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.
From 2 Peter 3:9 what promise is it that Jehovah is not slow respecting? |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | RR, It is a life saving work. |
"A Life saving work"? Jesus promised, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14) Does this promise mean that now is the only time of salvation for all people? The common words ALL and EVERY are two of the most important words in the Bible. In Luke 2:10 the angel who announced the birth of Jesus said, "Behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people." Verses 30 and 31 speak of salvation for "ALL people." 1 Timothy 4:10 speaks of God as "the Saviour of ALL men."
The simple logic of Jesus dying for ALL is found in 1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." Similarly, Romans 5:18 shows that "by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon ALL men." Father Adam sinned with the unborn race yet in his loins. Therefore, ALL were born in sin and shapen in iniquity (Psalm 51:5) and thus worthy of death. God knew that Adam, due to a lack of experience would disobey. 1 Peter 1:19,20, speaks of the blood of Christ as being foreordained for our redemption even before Adam was created. Since ALL were lost in Adam, it was necessary that Jesus "by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man" (Hebrews 2:9).
John 1:7 speaks of Jesus as "the Light, that ALL men through him might believe." Verse 9 says he is "the True Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world." How can this be? Countless millions died before the time of Jesus. They never saw the True Light! They never heard the name of Jesus. And since the death of Jesus, millions died never hearing of the only "name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). As a Bible-believing Christian, you know that no one is saved through ignorance but only by believing in Jesus as his or her saviour. This is a seeming contradiction. The answer is found in 1 Timothy 2:5,6, ". . .Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time"-a plain statement that Jesus died for "ALL." If Jesus died for "ALL," why is it that ALL do not have the opportunity to hear this good news? The key of harmony is found in the phrase "due time." The Greek word translated "time" is plural; i.e., times (Thayer's Lexicon of the New Testament). The knowledge that Jesus is a ransom for ALL will be testified "in due times." The due time for those God is calling to be of the Church is during the Christian Age. The due time for ALL other people to understand is during the 1,000-year reign of Christ.
So, I disagree with your premise of a life saving work, now is NOT the time for ALL to hear the name of Jesus. God is not trying to convert the world between the first and second advents. If He was, then He has obviously failed. For after nearly 2,000 years, less than one third of the world's population even claims to be Christian. The fact is Jesus predicted only that the gospel would be a witness to the world, not that all would be converted before the end of the Age.
Mark 4:11,12, specifically states that God is not trying to convert the world now. Jesus said to his disciples, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Ponder well this scripture.
If Jesus died for ALL, why has God arranged that many would not be able to understand the Bible and, therefore, not be converted and have their sins forgiven? The Bible is not written like a textbook system of logic. God purposely had the Bible written in parables and symbols, so that many would not be converted and have their sins forgiven. This is why there are over 250 Christian denominations with so many different interpretations of the Bible. God has not attempted to convert the world, but is only calling a "little flock" at this time. If man's eternal destiny was dependent upon understanding the Bible now, our God of love (1 John 4:8) would have surely made the Bible plain and simple for all to understand.
Acts 15:14-17 reveals that "God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name [not to convert all]. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, after this I will return [Second Advent] and build again the tabernacle of David [set up the kingdom of God]. . .that the residue [REMAINDER] of men might seek after the Lord and ALL the Gentiles. . . ." God's work since the death of Jesus has not been to convert all humankind, but merely to take out or to call out a "people for his name." In the Kingdom, all the REMAINDER of men, who are not of these called out ones, will have their opportunity to seek the Lord.
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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RR,
You sound like a Universal Salvationist. That is not scriptural. All have the opportunity but not all take it. We have free will and people choose what they will do.
(John 3:36) He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
| RR wrote: | | Does this promise mean that now is the only time of salvation for all people? |
Now is the only time we face Armageddon.
2 Pet 3:9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.
From 2 Peter 3:9 what promise is it that Jehovah is not slow respecting? |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | RR, You sound like a Universal Salvationist. That is not scriptural. All have the opportunity but not all take it. We have free will and people choose what they will do. |
Hardly! I believe that the world was universally lost through Adam. I believe in a universal redemption, that Christ by the grace of God tasted death for every man. I believe in a universal opportunity, for this is the very reason that God gave His son to die for the world, and all, whoever will have it on God's terms of a perfect heart and love for God and man, may have it. Whoever will not have it on God's terms cannot have it at all, but will be destroyed from the presence of the people.
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: |
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RR,
Hi,
| RR wrote: | | I believe in a universal opportunity |
Me too. That is why the preaching work will be completed before the end comes.
Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief!!!
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | RR, Me too. That is why the preaching work will be completed before the end comes. |
TB, may I ask what the millennial reign is for?
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | | TB, may I ask what the millennial reign is for? |
Yes.
That is when, after God's kingdom destroys human governments and all vestiges of Satan's system of things, including those who disobey the good news of the Christ, then Jesus applies the benefits of his sacrifice to mankind to bring them to perfection to erase the effects of sin and death we inherited from Adam. The dead will be resurrected, both the righteous and the unrighteous, or people who have not had an opportunity to learn of Jesus. They will be given that opportunity then and decide if they will follow it.
Yet for us, we know Jehovah's day will come as a thief, so we need to be ready when it does come. Because those not recognizing the urgency of the time we are living in will be swept away. 
Matt 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | That is when, after God's kingdom destroys human governments and all vestiges of Satan's system of things, including those who disobey the good news of the Christ, then Jesus applies the benefits of his sacrifice to mankind to bring them to perfection to erase the effects of sin and death we inherited from Adam. The dead will be resurrected, both the righteous and the unrighteous, or people who have not had an opportunity to learn of Jesus. They will be given that opportunity then and decide if they will follow it |
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So what you're saying is that the "ransom for all" isn't really"a ransom for all", it's "a ransom for some."
| Quote: | | Matt 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. |
So all those who died in the flood and at armageddon will not be resurrected? They stay dead? What scriptures do you have for that? When the the flood victims hear about Christ, or those of Sodom and Gomorrah? If the righteous AND unrighteous are to be raised in the last day, why doesn't EVERYONE raised, and given the opportunity toi learn of God and what he provided through His Son, Jesus? Wouldn't that be a more Scriptural solution?
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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RR,
| RR wrote: | So what you're saying is that the "ransom for all" isn't really"a ransom for all", it's "a ransom for some."
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(John 3:36) He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
People have free will. They can choose to disobey. They can choose to live their lives and ignor the significance of what is happening around them. That is why the following scripture has meaning for us.
Matt 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
We cannot be that way or the same fate will happen to us.
| RR wrote: | | So all those who died in the flood and at armageddon will not be resurrected? They stay dead? |
Yes. Is it reasonable to believe that God exacutes judgement of individualls only to resurrect them.  Life is a gift God gives, not a right.
Jesus even spoke of the Pharisees: Matt 23:33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na?
Gehanna is the same as the lake of fire. These unrepentent Pharisees were heading toward the lake of fire, if they didn't change they were dead forever.
Matt 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na.
God can destroy both the body and any hope of a resurrection in Gehenna, the lake of fire.
| RR wrote: | | If the righteous AND unrighteous are to be raised in the last day, why doesn't EVERYONE raised, and given the opportunity toi learn of God and what he provided through His Son, Jesus? Wouldn't that be a more Scriptural solution? |
The scriptures are clear. Jehovah's day is coming as a thief. That wouldn't at all be significant or meaningful if all who are now being warned can disobey or ignor the warning and be resurrected.
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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TBax, you use the right scriptures, but apply them to the wrong age. The ONLY ones who are judged for life NOW are those of the Little Flock.
People who live in so-called "judgment periods" will be resurrected. All final judgment for the world is reserved for the Millennial Judgment Day, when ALL will be taught of Jehovah. Then when they receive knowledge of Christ, will they be judged. Free from Satan's influence to accept the message.
Adam was a sinner and was justly sentenced to death. But so are all of his children. Consider these verses.
Romans 3:10 just as it is written: "There is not a righteous [man], not even one.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
If Adam had not sinned, no ransom would be needed. The ransom (corresponding price) consisted of the sacrifice of the perfect man Jesus to redeem the perfect man Adam who had sinned. Incidentally Adam's offspring were condemned and incidentally they are redeemed.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment] came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the] [free] [gift] [came] to all men, resulting in justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Just a note: In all three of these verses the same Greek word PAS is used. It is also used in Matthew 24:14 "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." In these four instances the New World Translation is inconsistent, rendering it "all" in Matthew 24:14 and in 1 Corinthians 15:22, but "all kinds" in Romans 5:18 and footnote of 1 Timothy 2:6.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
RR |
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