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| Are the annointed 144,000 all male virgins? |
| YES! Only Male Virgins will be allowed in to heaven! |
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| NO! It's not a literal bunch of males & not literal virgins! |
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| I don't know. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1132
Location: US
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 Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: 144,000 Virgin Males? ... (Revived and Revisited) |
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Revelation 14 (KJV)
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The above-mentioned verses bring up several questions but I'll start with just a few:
1) Are the 144,000 all men?
2) Where in this whole world past or present time can 144,000 men be found who are virgins?
3) Doesn't reading these verses blow the Jehovahs Witness idea of who is among the 144,000 right out of the water?
I know married JW married couples who believe they are part of the annointed. How can that be if they are all men and if they are all virgins?
I really want to know!
Luv
Last edited by luvnlife on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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At Pentacost 33 C.E. when the holy spirit annointed the first Christians with that heavenly hope, there were 120 disciples there, and no doubt included women.
Their virginity is spiritual in that they don't consort with the great harlot. They also don't get involved in spiritual fornication which means being a friend of the world.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Rev 7:
"14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
Compare that with this description in Rev 22, commonly accepted as being of we believers in our eternal state:
"3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."
And this passage from Rev 21:
"3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Note Rev 22:4 which I quoted above.
| Quote: | | 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. |
As I mentioned, this is generally understood to be talking about us in our eternal glorified state.
In Rev 14, it says this about the 144,000:
| Quote: | | 1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. |
Hopefully my color coding helped point out that wherever the 144,000 are described, their description matches that of us, the believers in Christ. What the author is showing his 1st century readers is that the church is the true heavenly Israel! It is those who are of faith, bot Jew and Gentile who are the "remnant of Israel" who were faithful to the Lord, without sin and without deception because they believe in Jesus as Messiah. They are the true Israel, and the 144,000.
The figure 144,000 relates to the description of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21. It is described as being "foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
A cube 12,000 furlongs on a side. The area of one face would be 144,000,000 square furlongs.
This city is identified plainly in Rev 21 when the angel said to John "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." He then showed him the New Jerusalem. We all pretty much agree on who the bride of Christ is, right? Sorry, those of you who expect the New Jerusalem to be a literal city that will orbit the earth in space.
The bride of Christ is depicted as a city because Jerusalem in Israel was where the temple was in the old testament, and the temple is where the presence of God Himself dwelt. Now look what He says in Revelation 21:
| Quote: | | "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." |
We believers are where the presence of God now dwells and that is why we are His holy city and His temple. John was writing that God had shown him that the church was the true fulfillment of Jerusalem, God's Holy City, the location of His temple, where His name and His presence dwells! I imagine this would have been a very remarkable and controversial idea in the 1st century! And in our day, it remains a glorious truth! And that is what I have been blessed to discover so far of the 144,000. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1132
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | At Pentacost 33 C.E. when the holy spirit annointed the first Christians with that heavenly hope, there were 120 disciples there, and no doubt included women. |
How do you know that women are included in the 144,000?
| TBax wrote: | | Their virginity is spiritual in that they don't consort with the great harlot. They also don't get involved in spiritual fornication which means being a friend of the world. |
The scripture says: "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."
It doesn't say they are not defiled by the great harlot of Babylon. It says women... plural.
Can men defile women too? I know the answer to this question but I am curious about your response.
Thanks,
Luv
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | | How do you know that women are included in the 144,000? |
Christians are women as well, aren't they? The letters written to the first century congregations, like speaking of the incorruptable crown, were to the women as well. 
1 Peter 3:7 YOU husbands, continue dwelling in like manner with them according to knowledge, assigning them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since YOU are also heirs with them of the undeserved favor of life, in order for YOUR prayers not to be hindered.
You do realize Revelation is written in signs and symbols, don't you?
That same group, the 144,000, are also called the bride of Christ.
P.S. Spirit creatures don't have gender, and as individuals are always spoken of in the masculine.
| luvnlife wrote: | | It doesn't say they are not defiled by the great harlot of Babylon. It says women... plural. |
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots
Each false religion is considered a harlot. As a group they are the great Harlot of Babylon. They all have things in common with the teachings of ancient Babylon.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Can men defile women too? |
Yes. You lost me with this question though. The harlots are women. What do you think Rev is refering to by saying "women"?
They obviously would NOT be literal virgins as many first century Christians were married. Including the apostle Peter.
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1132
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I am mystified by your response for a several reasons:
1) There is not just one true religion.
2) Don't you find it odd that the 'false prophets' and 'false churches' are referred to as women? I mean, most are led by men.
3) The followers of Christ are the bride (woman) of Christ.
4) Women are not mentioned in the scriptures quoted in the first thread of this post. Aren't you making a broad assumption that women will be part of the 144,000?
Luv |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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If I may interject on the origina question, the statement “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins” is not to be understood in a literal sense any more than the other symbols described in this chapter. It indicates singleness of purpose in following the Lord. Paul states, “For I have espoused you to one [spiritual] husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ” (2 Cor. 11:2).
Consider the message to the Church of Thyatira, the Lordr rebuked those who “sufferest that woman Jezebel [the Roman Catholic Church], which calleth herself a prophetess [teacher], to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication” (Rev. 2:20). And
in Revelation 17:5 this same religious system, having denominational daughters, is styled the “MOTHER OF HARLOTS.” These are the “women” referred to in verse 4, i.e., the women who cause defilement.
At what point does this defilement begin? It occurs after the Lord’s people find themselves in such human organizations and the light of truth has penetrated, revealing to them how God’s plan and character are being misrepresented by these women systems. When they hear the Lord’s Word say, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4), it behooves them to respond. If one refuses to obey the light granted by God and the voice of His truth, then defilement of conscience begins at that point. Whoever—for family, social, or financial reasons—holds to that which is built upon a wrong principle traduces the divine character and plan; and if affirmative action is not taken, such a one will prove unworthy of being counted an overcomer and will thus fail to have part in the “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:5). Even though many were in the nominal Church down through the age—even though the wheat and the tares did grow together until the time for separation—the true wheat class has never been in harmony with sectarianism (Matt. 13:24–30,37–43).
RR |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | | 1) There is not just one true religion. |
Really? How many religion did Jesus start?
Eph 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
There is only one road to life and few find it. All others are on the broad road, including all those claiming to be Jesus' followers who are not doing God's will of preaching the good news to their neighbors like the first century disciple did. 
| luvnlife wrote: | | 2) Don't you find it odd that the 'false prophets' and 'false churches' are referred to as women? I mean, most are led by men. |
No I don't find it odd. They commit fornication with the kings of the earth or teach pagan doctrine. Spiritual adultery is what they do.
| luvnlife wrote: | | 3) The followers of Christ are the bride (woman) of Christ. |
More specifically, those who are spiritual Israelites, the 144,000 who make up New Jerusalem, are that bride.
Rev 21: 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
| luvnlife wrote: | | 4) Women are not mentioned in the scriptures quoted in the first thread of this post. Aren't you making a broad assumption that women will be part of the 144,000? |
Didn't you see that scripture that shows the women are heirs with the men?
You do realize Revelation is written in signs and symbols, don't you?
You know these ones couldn't be literal virgins as the Apostle Peter was married and no doubt part of this 144,000 group who will rule with Christ, don't you?
P.S. Spirit creatures don't have gender, and as individuals are always spoken of in the masculine.
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Wait!!
I believe this verse is literal, but read it closely, It says only 144 000 could sing a certain song. We know of at least 4 non-virgin men in heaven Enoch, Abraham, Isac, Jacob. It says nothing about, only them in heaven.
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By the way, I do believe there is only one true religion - - Christianity - -
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Prys die Heer! |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | Wait!! I believe this verse is literal, but read it closely, It says only 144 000 could sing a certain song. We know of at least 4 non-virgin men in heaven Enoch, Abraham, Isac, Jacob. It says nothing about, only them in heaven. |
er ... where does it say in the scriptures that these men are in heaven?
RR |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| RR wrote: | | PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | Wait!! I believe this verse is literal, but read it closely, It says only 144 000 could sing a certain song. We know of at least 4 non-virgin men in heaven Enoch, Abraham, Isac, Jacob. It says nothing about, only them in heaven. |
er ... where does it say in the scriptures that these men are in heaven?
RR |
Luke13:28"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out"
And
Heb10:5"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
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Prys die Heer! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Reference to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in Luke must be symbolic of the heirs, the seed of Abraham, or in reference to enjoying the benefits of that kingdom on earth as:
John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
So all who died previous to Jesus ascention didn't go to heaven.
Only those annointed with holy spirit rule with Christ in the heavens. John the Baptist died before Jesus poured out that spirit, therefore:
Matt 11:11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
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Regarding Heb 11:5, Enoch had many enemies, and God didn't allow him to experience a violent death, yet peacefully "took him" into His memory till the earthly resurrection when he will live again. |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Reference to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in Luke must be symbolic of the heirs, the seed of Abraham, or in reference to enjoying the benefits of that kingdom on earth as:
John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
So all who died previous to Jesus ascension didn't go to heaven.
Only those anointed with holy spirit rule with Christ in the heavens. John the Baptist died before Jesus poured out that spirit, therefore:
Matt 11:11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
--
Regarding Heb 11:5, Enoch had many enemies, and God didn't allow him to experience a violent death, yet peacefully "took him" into His memory till the earthly resurrection when he will live again. |
TBax, when Jesus died what happened to the holy men? they were resurrected. But Still went to heaven! they were not all virgins. Enoch was not a Virgin!
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Prys die Heer! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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PrysdieHeer!,
I know neither they nor the annointed are literal virgins. That is not in question. 
| Prysdieheer! wrote: | | TBax, when Jesus died what happened to the holy men? they were resurrected. |
All prechristian "holy men" are to be resurrected on earth in the future. Only 144,000 are resurrected to heavenly life to rule with Christ.
Only those anointed with holy spirit rule with Christ in the heavens. John the Baptist died before Jesus poured out that spirit, therefore:
Matt 11:11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1132
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | | 1) There is not just one true religion. |
Really? How many religion did Jesus start? |
1 religion, many different branches (churches, sects) of that religion.
| Quote: | | luvnlife wrote: | | 2) Don't you find it odd that the 'false prophets' and 'false churches' are referred to as women? I mean, most are led by men. |
| TBax wrote: | | No I don't find it odd. They commit fornication with the kings of the earth or teach pagan doctrine. Spiritual adultery is what they do. |
| luvnlife wrote: | | 4) Women are not mentioned in the scriptures quoted in the first thread of this post. Aren't you making a broad assumption that women will be part of the 144,000? |
| TBax wrote: | Didn't you see that scripture that shows the women are heirs with the men?
You do realize Revelation is written in signs and symbols, don't you?
You know these ones couldn't be literal virgins as the Apostle Peter was married and no doubt part of this 144,000 group who will rule with Christ, don't you?
P.S. Spirit creatures don't have gender, and as individuals are always spoken of in the masculine.
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Uh...Yeah!. I guess what I'm wondering is what made you interpret the scriptures the way you did? I can understand your desire to understand and interpret these verses as in reading Revelations, I find myself trying to figure out who or what the various beasts and harlots mentioned are referring to. I find myself wondering what the plagues really represent and I wonder what the significance of the colors of the various horses mentioned is. For example, could the oil companies or the U.N. be represented by any of the figures in Revelations? Could AIDS or the influenza's which become more threatening each year represent one or more of the plagues? But I don't know the answers to these questions for sure.
I suppose that's why I am questioning you. Since it's obviously not a literal straight-forward commentary, how can you inject or presume anything regarding these scriptures? Do you re-write them in your heart because of the women in your life that you love and respect or is there another compelling reason why I should accept your interpretation?
Luv |
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