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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1777
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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bibletalk,
Hi, 
It is commendable that you are trying to keep current. However if you were to read that "Questions from readers" article carefully you would realize your "Apparent conclusion" is wrong.
Specifically-
| bibletalk wrote: | | However, the Watchtower magazine of May 1, 2007 says that the selection is still going on. Apparently this conclusion is based on the number of those who became Witnesses after 1935 who feel that they’ve been selected for heavenly life. |
There may be a necessity to replace annointed ones who have fallen away from the faith. God decides who that will be. That article mentioned we shouldn't judge those (new ones) who make the claim they are annointed, but that matter is between them and Jehovah. Whoever partakes unworthily must answer for their error. But again, God is the judge, not us.
Take care. |
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hupo
Tadpole
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Galilee, Israel
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Shalom TBax,
At the end of your post you wrote "If you have any questions feel free to ask" and I would like to take you up on that.
But as I haven't been here for over 6 months, maybe a couple of words to "level out" in this forum.
While studying God's Word, I came across a person who has been teaching the Bible for 30 years. She is a good teacher in that she has "forced" me to study scripture in a way I have never done before. She just happens to be a Jehovah's witness  and this was cause for many stern words for my not having anything to do with "them" etc. Well, "by their fruits you shall know them" and I find myself study God's word with intensity and excitement I have never known.
I myself am NOT a Jehovah's witness and in fact strongly disagree with that view/doctrine/way.
Yet I do see it as quite amusing that I am witnessing to a Jehovah's witness 
Now this is my starting point. I am a witness, not a judge, prosecutor or atorney. God does not need my help. Yeshua doesn't need me to prove that He IS God. The Holy spirit doesn't need me to make sure He is recognized as A distinct Person in the Holy Trinity.
We each witness to what we see. Aparently we see differently.
So now to them questions..... 
| Quote: |
What beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses set them apart as different from other religions?
(1) Bible: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the Bible as the standard for all their beliefs. |
Why is this different than any other belief?
Which Bible are we talking about? English, Hebrew, Greek, other? Which translation?
What/Who describes a translation as True or False?
| Quote: |
(2) God: They worship Jehovah as the only true God and freely speak to others about him and his loving purposes toward mankind. Anyone who publicly witnesses about Jehovah is usually identified as belonging to the one group—“Jehovah’s Witnesses.” |
Does this make me a JW?! After all I do witness to God's greatness and Yeshua's love for us, and the Spirit's teachings...
| Quote: |
(3) Jesus Christ: They believe, not that Jesus Christ is part of a Trinity, but that, as the Bible says, he is the Son of God, the first of God’s creations; that he had a prehuman existence and that his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a virgin, Mary; that his perfect human life laid down in sacrifice makes possible salvation to eternal life for those who exercise faith; that Christ is actively ruling as King, with God-given authority over all the earth since 1914. |
What happened in 1914 to make it special?
| Quote: |
(4) God’s Kingdom: They believe that God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind; that it is a real government; that it will soon destroy the present wicked system of things, including all human governments, and that it will produce a new system in which righteousness will prevail. |
Will this kingdom be an earthly one? Who will lead it? | Quote: |
(5) Heavenly life: They believe that 144,000 spirit-anointed Christians will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, ruling as kings with him. They do not believe that heaven is the reward for everyone who is “good.” |
and this is not God's kingdom? I mean if it's a real government, it is most likely here on earth replacing what exists today..... Which would make it a two system: God's kingdom and Yeshua's heavenly kingdom..... did I get this right? | Quote: |
(6) The earth: They believe that God’s original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection; that even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings. |
So Jehovah's witnesses believe in resarection? How do they feel about Ezikiel's prophecy of the "dry bones"?
| Quote: |
(7) Death: They believe that the dead are conscious of absolutely nothing; that they are experiencing neither pain nor pleasure in some spirit realm; that they do not exist except in God’s memory, so hope for their future life lies in a resurrection from the dead. |
This speaks for the previous question I guess  | Quote: |
(9) Separate from the world: They earnestly endeavor to be no part of the world, as Jesus said would be true of his followers. They show genuine Christian love for their neighbors, but they do not share in the politics or the wars of any nation. They provide for the material needs of their families but shun the world’s avid pursuit of material things and personal fame and its excessive indulgence in pleasure. |
wouldn't it follow that an earthly government would need earthly stuff to keep it going: air to breath, water do live on, child bearing to continue mankind etc....? | Quote: |
(10) Apply Bible counsel: They believe that it is important to apply the counsel of God’s Word in everyday life now—at home, in school, in business, in their congregation. Regardless of a person’s past way of life, he may become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses if he abandons practices condemned by God’s Word and applies its godly counsel. But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, drug abuse, drunkenness, lying, or stealing, he will be disfellowshipped from the organization. |
Kind of harsh on those who do not see or hear "the truth" isn't it? Not very forgiving either.....
What about backsliders? do they get excommunicated for good or can they "repent" and get back in?
| Quote: |
Some bitter people call us a cult, but as you know the first century Christians were spoken against as well.
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Do you see any other belief as a cult?
I'm just getting to know what Jehova's witnesses are all about. I have no problem discussing things with those I disagree with, so feel free to do what you will with my questions.
Whatever your response, I feel blessed at having the opertunity of talking with you
Thanks and God bless |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1777
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: |
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hupo,
Hi,
Nice to hear from you. To answer your questions:
| hupo wrote: | | TBax wrote: | What beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses set them apart as different from other religions?
(1) Bible: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the Bible as the standard for all their beliefs. |
Why is this different than any other belief? |
It is different because many claim to believe the Bible yet their beliefs and their actions betray that claim. If they see something they don't like they simply rationalize those particular scriptures away. We hold to the Bible as the standard for all our beliefs.
| hupo wrote: | Which Bible are we talking about? English, Hebrew, Greek, other? Which translation?
What/Who describes a translation as True or False? |
We mainly use the New world translation, however many largely literal translations are fine. Some paraphrased Bibles put things eloquently but are not to be relied upon because of the greater liberties that are taken. If one translation seem to conflict with another you can go to the original language translations and figure out which one is more accurate.
| hupo wrote: | | Does this make me a JW?! After all I do witness to God's greatness and Yeshua's love for us, and the Spirit's teachings... |
Accurate knowledge and bringing your life in harmony with God's righteous principles are required as well. Simply speaking out about "God's greatness and Yeshua's love for us" is not enough. For instance, if you teach that Jesus is Jehovah, or if you make a practice of having relations with someone who is not your marriage mate then you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses as you actions or teachings betray that claim.
| hupo wrote: | | What happened in 1914 to make it special? |
Christ was installed as King and God's kingdom was born.
| hupo wrote: | Will this kingdom be an earthly one? Who will lead it?
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It is a heavenly kingdom that rules over the earth. Jesus is the leader.
| hupo wrote: | | and this is not God's kingdom? I mean if it's a real government, it is most likely here on earth replacing what exists today..... Which would make it a two system: God's kingdom and Yeshua's heavenly kingdom..... did I get this right? |
No you didn't get it entirely right. The 144,000 are part of that heavenly kingdom, refered to as the bride of Christ. Together with Christ they rule over the earth. One kingdom called God's kingdom does take the place of human rulership and rules over the earth.
| hupo wrote: | | So Jehovah's witnesses believe in resarection? How do they feel about Ezikiel's prophecy of the "dry bones"? |
Yes the resurrection is the Bibles hope for those who have died. Please be more specific about Ezekials prophesy, and cite where it is located please.
| hupo wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | (9) Separate from the world: They earnestly endeavor to be no part of the world, as Jesus said would be true of his followers. They show genuine Christian love for their neighbors, but they do not share in the politics or the wars of any nation. They provide for the material needs of their families but shun the world’s avid pursuit of material things and personal fame and its excessive indulgence in pleasure. |
wouldn't it follow that an earthly government would need earthly stuff to keep it going: air to breath, water do live on, child bearing to continue mankind etc....? |
You lost me here. First of all there is a major difference between having the necessities of life and being materialistic. Do you understand the difference? Jesus said if we seek the kingdom first such necessities will be added to us. We weren't to worry about such things.
Second, the kingdom is heavenly, but as for the subject on earth God will take care of us.
| hupo wrote: | | Kind of harsh on those who do not see or hear "the truth" isn't it? Not very forgiving either..... |
It may seem harsh, but it is scriptural and it is actually an expression of love for God and that individual.
1 Cor 5:9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
And for those that learn from this experience it means everlasting life for them.
| hupo wrote: | | What about backsliders? do they get excommunicated for good or can they "repent" and get back in? |
NOTICE the exact wording used. "But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication..." Sinning because of weakness and making a practice of it are two seperate things. Repentent people are always welcomed back. Part of repenting means to stop the bad practice. This means their life. If they slip up again, they need to work again to come back. The only time the chance to come back is gone is when Armageddon arrives.
| hupo wrote: | | Do you see any other belief as a cult? |
I believe "cult" is a subjective term and it depends on how you are using it. If following Jesus make us "unorthadox" and that makes us a cult, so be it. If by cult you mean like the crazy guy who claimed to be the messiah and his followers who secluded themselves in Waco Texas, then it is inaccurate to associate us with the likes of these.
I appreciate your questions and hope I was helpful. If you have any others fell free to continue.
Take care. |
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hupo
Tadpole
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Galilee, Israel
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
(Jehova's Witnesses belief)
It is different because many claim to believe the Bible yet their beliefs and their actions betray that claim. If they see something they don't like they simply rationalize those particular scriptures away. We hold to the Bible as the standard for all our beliefs.
(which Bible?)
We mainly use the New world translation, however many largely literal translations are fine. Some paraphrased Bibles put things eloquently but are not to be relied upon because of the greater liberties that are taken. If one translation seem to conflict with another you can go to the original language translations and figure out which one is more accurate.
(Does this make me a JW?!)
Accurate knowledge and bringing your life in harmony with God's righteous principles are required as well. Simply speaking out about "God's greatness and Yeshua's love for us" is not enough. For instance, if you teach that Jesus is Jehovah, or if you make a practice of having relations with someone who is not your marriage mate then you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses as you actions or teachings betray that claim.
(What happened in 1914 to make it special?)
Christ was installed as King and God's kingdom was born.
It is a heavenly kingdom that rules over the earth. Jesus is the leader.
(God's kingdom and Yeshua's heavenly kingdom..... did I get this right?)
No you didn't get it entirely right. The 144,000 are part of that heavenly kingdom, refered to as the bride of Christ. Together with Christ they rule over the earth. One kingdom called God's kingdom does take the place of human rulership and rules over the earth.
(Ressurection?)
Yes the resurrection is the Bibles hope for those who have died. Please be more specific about Ezekials prophesy, and cite where it is located please.
(concedering the earthly government)
You lost me here. First of all there is a major difference between having the necessities of life and being materialistic. Do you understand the difference? Jesus said if we seek the kingdom first such necessities will be added to us. We weren't to worry about such things.
Second, the kingdom is heavenly, but as for the subject on earth God will take care of us.
(What about backsliders?)
NOTICE the exact wording used. "But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication..." Sinning because of weakness and making a practice of it are two seperate things. Repentent people are always welcomed back. Part of repenting means to stop the bad practice. This means their life. If they slip up again, they need to work again to come back. The only time the chance to come back is gone is when Armageddon arrives.
(Do you see any other belief as a cult?)
I believe "cult" is a subjective term and it depends on how you are using it. If following Jesus make us "unorthadox" and that makes us a cult, so be it. If by cult you mean like the crazy guy who claimed to be the messiah and his followers who secluded themselves in Waco Texas, then it is inaccurate to associate us with the likes of these.
I appreciate your questions and hope I was helpful. If you have any others fell free to continue.
Take care. |
Thanks so much TBax,
I appreciate your openess especially as I think JW's are quite strongly opposed in many circles.
I'm finding my way around your belief and your answers were very helpfull. There are many question evolving from your answers but for now I need to go over what you posted.
Rationalizing scripture is a world-wide cross-doctrine human weakness. I don't think it can be attributed only to a certain group of people. God knows I do that at times... don't you?
God's kingdom...it's confusing. I'll need to read up more on that.
On using the word "cult": I wasn't refering to you as a cult, I was asking if you see any other belief as such.
As for Ezekiel, the following is what I am refering to....
Eze 37:4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD."
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
Eze 37:8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
How does this fit in with JW belief?
Ok, this has been a blessing for me. We are all living on one planet or as someone put it, we are all animals in Noah's ark and they got along with each other. We should be able to, too. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1777
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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hupo,
Hi,
| hupo wrote: | | God's kingdom...it's confusing. I'll need to read up more on that. |
I hope you do. Teaching about that kingdom is one of the reasons Jesus was sent forth (to the earth). The Bible shows that kingdom will destroy and take the place of human governments and stand forever.
| hupo wrote: | | On using the word "cult": I wasn't refering to you as a cult, I was asking if you see any other belief as such. |
I know. But I generally don't like to use that word because of the ambiguity of its meaning.
Regarding Ezekial's prophesy, I wasn't familiar to well with that account. I looked it up and found this explanation:
| Quote: | | Jehovah gave Ezekiel, in Babylon, a vision in which he likened Israel to dry bones lying in a valley plain. In the vision, as Ezekiel prophesied to the bones, they miraculously came together, and flesh came upon them. Then he prophesied to the wind, and it brought breath into their bodies so that they stood up as a great army. Jehovah explained the vision as applying to Israel who, swallowed up in Babylonian exile, were as people whose hope had perished. (Eze 37:1-11) Similarly, Jeremiah likened the king of Assyria, who took the ten-tribe kingdom into exile, and Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, who carried away Judah, to lions devouring God’s people and gnawing on their bones. (Jer 50:17) God had permitted this because of Israel’s apostasy. But Jehovah was going to remember them and put into them his spirit, which would revive and revitalize them as well as bring them back to be settled in the Promised Land.—Eze 37:12-14. |
Hope this helps.
Take care. |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: The Jewish People are Jehovah’s Witnesses |
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The name, Jehovah’s Witnesses or Witnesses of Jehovah, however else used, is a scriptural concept. But to whom did the Lord give this title? Has the Lord instructed Christians to be witnesses for Jehovah, or witnesses for Jesus? There is not a single New Testament scripture that calls Christians the witnesses of Jehovah. On the other hand, the New Testament commissions Christians to be the ‘witnesses of Jesus’ (Acts 1:8; Revelation 20:4) and the ‘ambassadors of Christ’ (2 Corinthians 5:20). The commission given to Christians by Jesus was that they should be his witnesses in all the world by preaching the Gospel (Matthew 24:14).
But the Jewish people witnessed for Jehovah in a different way. It was not because Israel preached God’s Word that they were called His ‘witnesses.’ Rather, it was because God revealed His glory to others by the miraculous manner in which he dealt with them.
In three instances in the Old Testament God said to Israel, ‘Ye are my witnesses.’ These three times are to be found in Isaiah 43 and 44. In these two chapters, Isaiah establishes five historic facts concerning who are the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah.
The ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah... Were delivered from the land of Egypt (Isaiah 43:3) Offered animal sacrifices to the Lord (Isaiah 43:23) transgressed the Law Covenant (Isaiah 43:24,25) Are forgiven for the Lord’s sake (Isaiah 43:25) Are being regathered from all over the world to the Holy Land (Isaiah 43:5,6) These five stated identifications are true only of one people, the Jews! Therefore, it is clear that the Jewish people, the ‘ancient people,’ ‘my chosen’, are the real ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah (Isaiah 44:7; 43:20).
But in case anyone concludes that the Jews have long since forfeited this title, the last scriptural assertion concerning the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah was a prophecy that is only now in the process of fulfillment. The Jewish people are being regathered from all over the world to the Land of Israel. Their regathering has been motivated not only by religious fervor, as some might have expected, but this does not matter. The Bible reveals that after the Jews are regathered in their Land, then the Lord will bring them through experiences that will gradually increase their faith and enkindle a true religious vitality that will reach their ‘inward parts’ and fit them for their special role in God’s Kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:1- 4).
How Are the Jewish People the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah? The Jewish people are the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah from two standpoints. First,
God has revealed His power and glory by the miraculous manner in which He has dealt with them (Isaiah 43:9- 12). God delivered them from Egypt, led them through the Red Sea, sustained them in the wilderness, led them through the River Jordan, gave them the land of Canaan, and made them a nation. During their chastening and dispersion, the phenomenal preservation of the people of Israel over the centuries as a distinct and homogeneous people among nations is itself a miracle of history. They have left blood- stained footprints of martyrdom in every nation they have trod. Neither persecution, nor famine, nor any other force was able to cause them to be assimilated. However, after 2,000 years, contrary to every pattern of history, they are re- established in their homeland, an independent nation. Surely the Lord’s power and glory has been witnessed through this people!
The second way they are the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah is how their history proves the validity of God’s Word- the Bible. Every detail of their history has been prophesied and fulfilled...or is in the process of fulfillment. Their original establishment as a nation, their destruction as a nation and dispersion as a people, their regathering, the circumstances of their regathering, their future role, all were prophesied in the Bible. All this detailed fulfillment is an extraordinary witness to the immutability of God’s Word. Therefore, these are
the reasons why the Lord has said of the Jewish People, ‘YE ARE MY WITNESSES, SAITH JEHOVAH.’ Promises to Christians, and to the Jewish People The ‘JWs’ today, like other replacement, theology- believing Christians, do not see any special future for the Jews.
However, ‘from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable’ (Romans 11:28,29 NAS). Since God promised that the Seed of Abraham would inherit the Land and bless all the families of the earth out of Jerusalem (Genesis 22:18,19; Jeremiah 32:41; Isaiah 2:2,3), what right have any Christians to annul this promise? These blessings were never forfeited. These promises are ‘forever’ (Amosos 9:14,15). If we say God has cancelled his promises to the children of Israel, what confidence can we have in His promises to us as Christians?
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1777
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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We are followers of Jesus, who was the foremost witness of Jehovah.
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
In preach the good news we do indeed witness about Jesus. But above all we honor Jesus Father and are his witnesses. |
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RR
Little Guppy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | We are followers of Jesus, who was the foremost witness of Jehovah. |
True, but Jesus emphatically stated that Christians were to be Witnesses of Jesus". Had our Lord wanted us to be Witnesses of Jehovah, he would have told his disciples "be ye witnesses of me as I am of Jehovah."
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Act 1:8 |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1777
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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If Jesus was the formost witness of Jehovah, and as Christians we are to follow in Jesus footsteps, then we too need to be witnesses of Jehovah.
Jesus is God's means of deliverence for us. We do indeed witness to others about that. That witness doesn't overshadow our witnessing about God in the least bit.
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