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bibletalk Tadpole
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 17 Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: Who really is the faithful and discreet slave? |
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Jehovah's Witnesses say that the 'slave' is a small group within their organization, going to heaven and presently alive on earth. The 'slave' is represented by a 'governing body' of about a dozen members which directs the actvities of all Witnesses.
Matthew 24:45-47 and Luke 12:42-44 speak of this 'slave' or 'steward.' Matthew says, "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings."
How can the individual or group to which these passages are referring be identified?
Could it be that every Christian who 'feeds' his fellows is being called on to do a good job of it?
Should we think that the 'slave' is all appointed shepherds of the flock? |
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Zathrus King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002 Posts: 2265 Location: WI USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: |
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IN the context, Jesus said this to His disciples, who would go on to become the apostles sent to spread the gospel and oversee the early church. So I think Jesus' statement definitely applies to them, and may by extension apply in some way to anyone in ministry today.
But fringe apocalyptic groups have always tried to say certain Biblical texts, usually prophecies, identify their particular organization. God did not limit His dealings with man, nor the understanding of His dealings, to one specific religious organization. _________________ Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: |
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To answer the question how do you identify that slave, maybe a scripture will help.
| Quote: |
Matthew 7:15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. |
This scripture show some would call Jesus Lord, thus claiming he is their master, but because of their works Jesus doesn't recognise them. Notice that those doing the will of his Father are the ones Jesus owns. The fruits they produce determine if they are trully following Jesus. Jesus said his disciples would be no part of the world, thus taking no part in the politics or the fights (wars) of this world. Jesus said: JOHN 13:35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”
Who have this LOVE among themselves, and are trully a spiritual brotherhood?
Also, doing the will of God includes the instructions Jesus gave us. Namely: Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
Who is doing this work of preaching about the good news of the kingdom, making disciples of people of all the nations, and observing Jesus words?
Answer these questions and you will find the organization where the faithful slave exists.  _________________ Agape,
TBax |
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RR Little Guppy

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 37 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: "That Servant" |
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Ephesians 6:17 defines the sword of the Spirit as being the Word of God. It is the only offensive weapon in the full armor of God and as such it is our responsibility to be able swordsmen. It is our responsibility to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. We are told to try the spirits and to study and show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. It is important that we have a SCRIPTURAL basis for everything that we believe, if we are truly Bible students. We have a direct scripture for every doctrine we have. There are no exceptions.
I. What scriptural authority do we have for the doctrine of “that servant”?
A. Matthew 24:45-47 (KJV): “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (v46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord, when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.”
B. Luke 12:35-38 & 41-44 (KJV): “(35) Let your loins be girded about and your lights burning; (36) And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. (37) Blessed are those servants whom the Lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. (38) And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. … (41) Then Peter said unto him, ‘Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?’ (42) And the Lord said Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? (43) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (44) Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.”
These scriptures directly indicate there would be a particular servant used of the Lord. We are not specifically told who that servant is, but we are, however, told what qualifications such a servant would have. Some say that “all we need is the Bible.” Jesus’ own words of Matthew 24:45 indicate we need more than just the Bible. “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season.” Clearly there would be an individual used of the Lord to dispense the spiritual meat in due season to the household of faith, particularly at the time of the Second Advent.
In Matthew 24:3 we are given the context of time for Jesus’ words. “And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming (parousia – presence) and the end of the age?” Jesus proceeds to give an answer which goes from Matthew 24:4 through Matthew 26:1. In that context we understand that there would be someone that the Lord would use to dispense the spiritual meat during the time of His return. If we believe that the Lord has returned, then we have to look for the messenger. We are also told (in part) what that spiritual meat would include in those chapters. Jesus detailed many outward signs that would validate his invisible presence – a time of trouble, a blossoming fig tree, judgment upon Christendom, etc. These points would have to be included in the message of that servant.
This authorized agent of God’s would have certain characteristics notably about him. Matthew 24:45 indicates he would be “faithful.” From Strong’s 4103 “Pistos” meaning trustworthy, faithful, sure, true. He is honest. This servant would not claim to be the author or originator of God’s plan; he would give all credit to God.
He would be “wise.” From Strong’s 5429 “phronimos” meaning sagacious, which means keenly perceptive. He would be a deep thinker which is just what God would use to bring forth ideas old and new and bring them to a new level of detail. For example, the Ransom for All. Jesus taking the place of Adam in death as his corresponding price is a far cry from “Jesus died for my sins.” 2 Peter 1:20 tells us “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” This servant does not interpret scriptures from his own imaginations; he interprets scripture using other scripture. Being keenly perceptive, he would address subjects that nobody else touched on, like the Jewish Double, Permission of Evil, the Jubilees, the Tabernacle types and antitypes, etc.
Matthew 24:45 says this person is a “servant.” From Strong’s 1401 “doulos” meaning a slave or bondservant. He would recognize that he was bought with a price, which interestingly is exactly the thought in 1 Cor. 7:22-23 where the same Greek word is used. “For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant (doulos), is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant (doulos). (23) Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants (doulos) of men.” He works for his master because his master bought him. He receives his necessities but doesn’t obtain earthly profit from his labors for his master.
In Luke 12:42 the word is “steward” and gives an additional thought. The word is from Strong’s 3623 “oikonomos” and means overseer, manager, fiscal agent or governor. This focuses not on the labor aspect but rather on the responsibility given that servant. It is the same word used in Luke 16:1 which has the same thought attached – that of responsibility. “Now He was also saying to the disciples, ‘There was a certain rich man who had a steward (oikonomos), and this steward (supplied in NAS) was reported to him as squandering his possessions.’” Here he was given responsibility over goods (property.) In Galatians 4:2 same Greek word is used, but the thought is that of having supervisory responsibility over people. “But is under tutors and governors (oikonomos) until the time appointed of the father.” In that context he is a supervisor or manager over people.
This servant would be a ruler. Ruler, however, is too strong a word. From Strong’s 2525 “kathistemi” means to appoint over, not to exalt over. It is better rendered in the NAS “he will put him in charge of all his possessions.” The Diaglott renders it “he will appoint him over all his possessions.” In fact, there is a warning against assuming this attitude of superiority over the other servants in scripture. Matthew 24:48–51 “But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The same warning is repeated in Luke 12:45-48. In the Matthew 24 account, the word “ruler” is used twice – first this servant is ruler over the household and eventually over all his goods. In the Luke account it indicates that the ministry of that servant would go from something small (faithful at his return) to something big – ruler over all his goods.
He is made ruler over “all” his goods. The word “all” is from Strong’s 3956 “pas” and is interpretive in the context. For example in Mark 1:5 the same word is used “And all (pas) the country of Judea was going out to him, and all (pas) the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.” Here it is referring to all the believers, not all on the planet. This servant is not given charge over every single point of truth because the light of truth grows brighter until the perfect day (Proverbs 4:18.) If he did, he would be infallible and have the same level of knowledge that God has. No human has this. He would, however, have the entire framework for the Divine Plan of the Ages and all the basic tools the harvest church would need through the end of the harvest. They would be able to rightly divide the word of truth through dispensations and Bible symbolisms and have everything needed to make their calling and election sure.
He is also made ruler over his household. The word “household” in both the Matthew and Luke accounts is Strong’s 2322 “therapeia” meaning healers. It is used four times in the New Testament (Englishman’s Greek Concordance of the NT) and is the root of the word “therapy.” In Matthew and Luke it is translated “household.” However, in Revelation 22:2 and Luke 9:11 it is translated “healing.” Revelation 22:2 “…and the leaves of the tree were for the healing (therapeia) of the nations.” Luke 9:11 “But the multitudes were aware of this and followed Him; and welcoming them, He began speaking to them about the kingdom of God and curing those who had need of healing (therapeia.).” This servant would be ruler over a group of healers whose job it is to heal the nations.
Part of the job of “That Servant” is to dispense “meat in due season” to the household. The word meat in Matthew 24:45 is from Strong’s 5160 “trophe” meaning to bring up, feed or nourish. This has the thought of the effect the spiritual meat would have. It is also the same word used in Hebrews 5:12 and 14, which interprets the meat as spiritual food: “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat (trophe.) (13) For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. (14) But strong meat (trophe) belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
In the Luke account the word for meat is “sitometron” from Strong’s 4620 meaning a ration of food or portion of meat. The two words combined give the thought that there is a portion of food to be dispensed for the nourishment and bringing up (energizing; uplifting; strengthening) of the household of faith. The due “season” is the Greek word “Kairos” (Strong’s 2540) which means a set time. This lends the thought that at a particular, appointed or set time there would be spiritual meat given to the household of faith to uplift and strengthen them. Up until 1874 the household of faith was feasting on the tainted spiritual meat of the trinity, hellfire, etc. and the church was spiritually sick because of it.
“…Blessed is that servant whom his master when he cometh finds so doing…” The word “cometh” is in the Greek “erchomai” (Strong’s 2064) which means the arriving of someone. It emphasizes the location of a person from one place to another. Neither Matthew nor Luke use “parousia” because the wise and faithful servant wouldn’t show up just anytime during the presence – he would be on the scene and busy supplying spiritual nourishment to hungry slaves when the Lord arrived. It’s a one time event.
RR |
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TBax King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| RR wrote: | | It is important that we have a SCRIPTURAL basis for everything that we believe, if we are truly Bible students. We have a direct scripture for every doctrine we have. There are no exceptions. |
Indeed.
| RR wrote: | | It’s a one time event. |
It is a one time event when Jesus comes or arrives in kingdom power. When he does he sees this faithful slave and appoints him over all his belongings.
Matt 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.
In a number of Jesus' illustrations he speak of going away and returning after a long time. His going away is to secure kingdom power. He comes back as king of God's kingdom, which already happened as we are living during the sign Jesus gave regarding that presence. In the near future our king will destroy human governments causing God's kingdom to take their place and rule over mankind.
Dan 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
 _________________ Agape,
TBax |
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RR Little Guppy

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 37 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | It is a one time event when Jesus comes or arrives in kingdom power. When he does he sees this faithful slave and appoints him over all his belongings. |
On this we agree.
| TBax wrote: | | ]In a number of Jesus' illustrations he speak of going away and returning after a long time. His going away is to secure kingdom power. He comes back as king of God's kingdom, which already happened as we are living during the sign Jesus gave regarding that presence. In the near future our king will destroy human governments causing God's kingdom to take their place and rule over mankind. |
On this we agree again.
Where we disagree on is WHO is "That Servant".
RR |
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